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New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

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Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#21

Post by rurban »

jdp23 wrote: post #4
rayiner wrote: post #2

This is great: simple and easy to understand. For everyone feigning confusion about modern professional behavioral norms, just memorize this list.

Yeah really! cperciva had a great tweet on this a few days ago: "Probably the most important thing to keep in mind when reading the FreeBSD Code of Conduct is that we weren't trying to change any rules. Rather, we were trying to elaborate on the rule under which the FreeBSD project has operated for years: Don't Be An Asshole."

It rather looks like an elaboration on the rule: "be free to label your critic as asshole"

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#22

Post by soyiuz »

ky738 wrote: post #14
soyiuz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part exactly do you find funny and why?

The part where they have to write a CoC to please some groups, and disregard a thing called "common sense" which always existed inside the community. Thus making this a joke.

This "pleases the group" that experiences harassment. Are you in favor of harassment? Or against protecting those who experience it?

If that's not a problem for you, and if your "common sense" makes you a nice person, these rules don't affect you in any way. However, my "common sense," which you don't seem to share, tells me that communities with explicit anti-harassment guidelines do better in creating a positive, smart, collaborative environment.

For example, on HN we rely on explicit guidelines for polite conversation and not on some implicit sense of common sense. Without those guidelines the conversation devolves into well... harassment, name calling, trolling etc. (See any unmoderated forum on Reddit).

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#23

Post by whatshisface »

rayiner wrote: post #18
thoaway1 wrote: post #13

If more and more groups insist on forcing their ideological agenda down the throats of contributors and users maybe it's time to start hacking on projects that don't feel the need to bring politics into software.

This is the exact opposite: It's rules for how to work on code without bringing personal crap into it. Do you want a date? Do you think there is something wrong with trans people? Do you have thoughts on race relations? Nobody cares, check that baggage at the door.

As far as I can see, the real problem here is that some forms of baggage are still allowed (an inevitable problem with any finite list of rules), meaning that you will end up with baggage imbalances and endless debate over which baggages are permissable self-expression and which ones are unacceptable.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#24

Post by unethical_ban »

ky738 wrote: post #14
soyiuz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part exactly do you find funny and why?

The part where they have to write a CoC to please some groups, and disregard a thing called "common sense" which always existed inside the community. Thus making this a joke.

You're like the Federalists who think we shouldn't have had to put down a Bill of Rights in the United States, because "obviously" any right not granted to the government is the right of the people.

Just like "Warning: Object is hot" seems stupid on an iron, it may seem silly that we have to say "Don't be racist; don't troll; don't pick on someone because of their attributes or beliefs; just be nice" but there it is.

I'll eat my hat if you have used FreeBSD as a daily driver for the past 15 years, and are going to uninstall it and re-architect your homelab or business because of this CoC. "I've dabbled in FreeBSD occasionally but have lost interest" is a different statement.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#25

Post by said »

rayiner wrote: post #18
thoaway1 wrote: post #13

If more and more groups insist on forcing their ideological agenda down the throats of contributors and users maybe it's time to start hacking on projects that don't feel the need to bring politics into software.

This is the exact opposite: It's rules for how to work on code without bringing personal crap into it. Do you want a date? Do you think there is something wrong with trans people? Do you have thoughts on race relations? Nobody cares, check that baggage at the door.

"Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion."

This doesn't preclude thoughts on race-relations—if that was the goal, it would've simply said so.

We know what this means.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#26

Post by aap_ »

rayiner wrote: post #18
thoaway1 wrote: post #13

If more and more groups insist on forcing their ideological agenda down the throats of contributors and users maybe it's time to start hacking on projects that don't feel the need to bring politics into software.

This is the exact opposite: It's rules for how to work on code without bringing personal crap into it. Do you want a date? Do you think there is something wrong with trans people? Do you have thoughts on race relations? Nobody cares, check that baggage at the door.

But do people actually do that? I have not seen anything like that in technical internet communities.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#27

Post by ksec »

ky738 wrote: post #14
soyiuz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part exactly do you find funny and why?

The part where they have to write a CoC to please some groups, and disregard a thing called "common sense" which always existed inside the community. Thus making this a joke.

Because sadly nowadays common sense is uncommon.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#28

Post by Joky »

jdp23 wrote: post #4
rayiner wrote: post #2

This is great: simple and easy to understand. For everyone feigning confusion about modern professional behavioral norms, just memorize this list.

Yeah really! cperciva had a great tweet on this a few days ago: "Probably the most important thing to keep in mind when reading the FreeBSD Code of Conduct is that we weren't trying to change any rules. Rather, we were trying to elaborate on the rule under which the FreeBSD project has operated for years: Don't Be An Asshole."

Exactly what happened in LLVM as well: let make it explicit what the expectations have always been and how everyone (most) already behave! https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#29

Post by mwcampbell »

ky738 wrote: post #14
soyiuz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part exactly do you find funny and why?

The part where they have to write a CoC to please some groups, and disregard a thing called "common sense" which always existed inside the community. Thus making this a joke.

Lamenting the need to write down common-sense rules may be reasonable. But if you truly value meritocracy, as those who dislike codes of conduct often do, then it would make more sense to keep using the OS as long as you are happy with the software itself, while arguing against the CoC.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#30

Post by rayiner »

whatshisface wrote: post #20

> Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion. So, there's a lot of "politicking" going on back and forth over this, but I'd like to suggest a specific problem: by attempting to formalize what used to be intuition, you're opening the door for people…

By that reasoning, we should never have rules, because any rule will create the possibility of people trying to lawyer out of the rules.
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