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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you have to establish that it was a total breakdown which I think you will have a hard time establishing in any meaningful way. But by all means. Let's hear the argument.

The Boss says I can not trust this person again nor can their coworkers for x y z reasons (And I Am afraid Mr Danmore has done this) and the employee is toast. This is a civil matter so its on the balance of probabilities this isn't a criminal court.

The boss just fired that person for just writing feedback which he was encouraged to do by HR.

How is that better?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that you feel so correct that you don't need to cite anything in reply to such a thorough analysis of events? "Prospered under inequality"? What was the name of this inequality law? Or was it "systemic" so I can't possibly understand it with my biased white male brain? The inequality we're under is the huge push to hire minorities and women. For example, as an Asian to get into Harvard, you need to have hig…

Yes, it's unfortunate that you can articulate the problem so well and still not see it for what it really is. But in the interest of carrying on, I am copy pasting one of my replies - In isolation, yes, you are very right. But history is anything but that, and there is always a context and reason for why things are the way they are. I am from India, and I know bias when I see it. Classism and racism is systemic in In…

>"What are you going to tell them? - Ok, we are sorry for what we have done, now we are going to be equal and you can compete for the same things? One group is dirt poor and disatvantaged, and the other has always enjoyed enough wealth to get proper education. How is that level playing field?"

Okay, setting aside the ethical and moral implications. The effects that you are trying to fix are impossible to unravel from everything else. No one is even attempting to unravel it, and are simply using race, wealth and gender. No one bothers to think something as simple as "oh - you're a poor white male whose family has been living in a trailer park for generations without education - let's try give you a leg-up" over any random black-female.

That is the fundamental problem and we're all beating around the bush. You can not fix cosmic injustice. It's done, and short of time-travel or planetary-sized super-computers, we can not untangle the mess of consequences it has caused. Anything less is just playing lip-service while neglecting the truly-needy.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it flags Damore's interpretation of science as squishy and ideological. Which, let's be fair, it totally is, because he's no scientist and he has a very limited understanding of the sources he quotes in support of his views. Scientific debate doesn't take place in Google forums through Google memos, any more than it happens in HN comments, so what was Damore's point of providing references to back his posit…

Actually, it flags Damore's interpretation of science as squishy and ideological. The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. The Big-5 personality traits he cited are the strongest results…

>> The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism.

Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, it's currently going through a widely publicised reproducibility crisis and in any case, the reliance on p-values has been criticised widely by experts in fields as varied as economics, medicine and of course the humanities. The big-5 model itself has been the subject of much criticism, from inside the field (and the wikipedia article you reference has a big section devoted to that criticism).

More improtantly however, Damore did a lot more than name-drop the big-5 in his memo. The memo is peppered with references to sources from varied fields, from psychology and sociology, to biology, evolutionary psychology, anthropology, economics, statistics and so on.

The problem of course is that Damore is not an expert in any of those fields- much less an expert in all of them. Which tells us that, most of the time, when he says that some paper he's referencing is backing his views, he simply hasn't got a clue what he's talking about and the paper may very well be claiming exactly the opposite than what Damore is saying.

Damore's memo is indulging in cargo-cult science. He references stuff he half-understands in the hopes to do what scientists do. Except he doesn't even understand what scientists do and why they reference others' work: which is to say, not to win a debate and show you're right on the internets, but to contribute new knowledge by building on the knowledge already contributed by others.

To have any respect for science and consider Damore's memo anything else than pseudo-scientific claptrap is a contradiction. To call that garbage "science" is offensive to the work of scientists. That is an even bigger reason to be angry at an idiot like that, without even going to what he was trying to say with his "sai-ent-tifickal" way.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that you feel so correct that you don't need to cite anything in reply to such a thorough analysis of events? "Prospered under inequality"? What was the name of this inequality law? Or was it "systemic" so I can't possibly understand it with my biased white male brain? The inequality we're under is the huge push to hire minorities and women. For example, as an Asian to get into Harvard, you need to have hig…

Yes, it's unfortunate that you can articulate the problem so well and still not see it for what it really is. But in the interest of carrying on, I am copy pasting one of my replies - In isolation, yes, you are very right. But history is anything but that, and there is always a context and reason for why things are the way they are. I am from India, and I know bias when I see it. Classism and racism is systemic in In…

In isolation? Where is any of this in isolation - is there an island with a politics laboratory somewhere? And yes, I've been to India and the truth is the same: the only way to stop being racist and sexist is to stop. Not to institute sexist and racist policies of "women aren't good enough so we must force more to be hired in professions they don't prefer" and "blacks aren't good enough so we need to let them in when their grades are lower than every one else's." Minorities need to be given a hand? You mean we need equal outcomes and minority opinions like Damore's are not welcome?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#775
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it wasn’t research. It was a sloppy regurgitation of some cherrypicked sources which made some sweeping claims, and oh by the way management was wrong and should let him tell them how to do it. Consider the alternative: say his goal had actually been to learn what most scientists believe or to see how it applied to Google. That would be things like a representative literature survey, lots of questions about how y…

So management decisions don't need any scientific backing, but criticisms of management must be PhD quality or GTFO?

Management decisions don't come with references to scientific papers, or any claim that they are backed by science. Damore's memo, on the other hand, did exactly that.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#776
post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's explicitly _not_ my argument! :) "You have a right to free speech, not to alienate your coworkers."

Precisely! So that is your argument for why prohibiting him from saying that was legitimate (firing somebody for behaviour X is pretty much the definition of a company prohibiting behaviour X, I mean, what else can a company do?).

He wasn't prohibited from saying anything.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#777
post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This explanation in the NPR piece is so thin, so poorly researched and so speculative I simply am not able to accept it. The entire narrative stinks, we need a better one backed by actual data. Look at the graph, women in STEM falls closer to 1986, when Reagan passed the immigration reform act. Doesn’t it seem suspicious that Reagan immigration reform landed right on top of this decline? I do agree that the standard…

The implication or this post is that the ratio of women among immigrants was lower than the indigenous population, and thus the influx of immigrants drove down the percentage of women in tech. I am not aware of other countries, but in India at least we have a higher percentage of women in IT than in the USA. So is it really true that female representation among these immigrants is lower than the indigenous population…

Anecdotally, I've encountered more Indian men than women in IT in USA. I'd guess that men emigrate more than women (and women who emigrate tend to come with their spouse), but I don't know for sure.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#778
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of the "early days of CS" narrative. Could it be that there were lots of women working with computers because it was seen as "secretarial" work. In other words, was it just bosses placing their female employees in computer-related roles as companies added those positions? If so, could it be that that "dropoff" in the 80s could be just reflective of the demographics of people who were choosing that profe…

My mother's college roommate went to work for NASA and worked on the Apollo projects starting in the 50s. Programming at that time was all women, and it was definitely seen as menial work. The literal astrophysicists and computer scientists were doing the "real" work, and the women were "just punching cards." That wasn't the reality of it, of course. Those women were doing massive amounts of the work around the logic…

No one is saying programming with Punch cards isn't programming. They are saying that transcribing paper into punchcards and running them through the computer isn't programming, any more than typing in code is programming. Someone who writes code that they or others put into the machine, is programming

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#779

The problem with Damore's theory he posited (that the difference in traits and abilities between men and women is why you see a certain imbalance in tech) ignores the history of computer science, where in the early days of CS you had a large amount of women entering into software followed by a sharp dropoff in the 80s [1]. The 'biological differences' argument falls flat because it implies that somehow women changed…

There was no sharp drop-off in the 80s. What happened is that interest from men soared while the proportion of women choosing to study it remained relatively constant in comparison, only dropping by a little in terms of the actual percentage of the female student body choosing it over other subjects. Looking only at the ratio is completely misleading. There was only a short exception around the PC boom and the dotcom…

You are deeply misinformed. At PhD level, Bio and Agro are gender balanced. CS is 95% male. Math and Engineering are about 70% male.

Women weren't becoming less represented in CS over time, because they were never welcomed in graduate programs in the first place

http://blogs.nature.com/naturejobs/2017/05/08/gender-gap-in-...

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#780
post #552

The problem with Damore's theory he posited (that the difference in traits and abilities between men and women is why you see a certain imbalance in tech) ignores the history of computer science, where in the early days of CS you had a large amount of women entering into software followed by a sharp dropoff in the 80s [1]. The 'biological differences' argument falls flat because it implies that somehow women changed…

I'm skeptical of the "early days of CS" narrative. Could it be that there were lots of women working with computers because it was seen as "secretarial" work. In other words, was it just bosses placing their female employees in computer-related roles as companies added those positions? If so, could it be that that "dropoff" in the 80s could be just reflective of the demographics of people who were choosing that profe…

The graph in the article linked by the OP plots the number of women majoring in computer science (and another three fields). Unless "computer science" meant something radically different in the '70s and early '80s than it does today, or secretaries' roles included coding algorithms and data structures in PDP assembly, then no, those were not secretaries, but computer scientists.
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