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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#551

Post by ThomPete »

rayiner wrote: post #537
ThomPete wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does pointing out difference in interest and a pretty well-established fact that women on average are more cooperative by any metrics prove that he should have claimed that women do not belong on google? In fact, his point is that technology is not even for most men which he has made clear in other interviews.

The problem is the assumption that being cooperative is somehow a liability rather than a strength in a profession that's much more about cooperation than other engineering fields. ( E.g. the trope that software is more complicated than an aircraft carrier because unlike in software, the toilet doesn't have modes of interaction with the steam launcher.)

Where does he claim it's a liability? As far as I remember I claim that this difference means that men and women generally make different choices. Can you point to where he says it's a liability?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#552

Post by gdix »

fzeroracer wrote: post #468

The problem with Damore's theory he posited (that the difference in traits and abilities between men and women is why you see a certain imbalance in tech) ignores the history of computer science, where in the early days of CS you had a large amount of women entering into software followed by a sharp dropoff in the 80s [1]. The 'biological differences' argument falls flat because it implies that somehow women changed…

I'm skeptical of the "early days of CS" narrative. Could it be that there were lots of women working with computers because it was seen as "secretarial" work. In other words, was it just bosses placing their female employees in computer-related roles as companies added those positions? If so, could it be that that "dropoff" in the 80s could be just reflective of the demographics of people who were choosing that profession. i.e. Once "computers" became a career that you could pursue, as opposed to being placed in, it attracted more men than women, possibly because men are more attracted to that type of work.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#553

Post by ggm »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #255
ggm wrote: post #100

What I think of his views (I disagree) is not germaine to the question: was it sensible to write and publish? It was not. That I disagree with his premise and polemic makes it easier for me to align desire and reality, but the reality of the situation doesn't change because of my desires: he was stupid to publish and Google were within their rights to fire him. All the other observed comments about liberal/conservati…

> he was stupid to publish Only in the way that union organizers and whistle blowers are stupid.

In choosing to publish at risk of jobloss? Surely not: they both go into the situation expecting adversity and seeking a wider oucome. He did no such thing, either by intent or not. But I already stated I don't agree with his world view and contextually I do agree with union organisation and whistleblowing, neither of which this was. What's your point? Trolling.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#554

Post by threeseed »

stcredzero wrote: post #361
ncallaway wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is that not "thought-crime?" Given that there's nothing criminal in any of the allegations, I don't see how _crime_ is even applicable in your label. Maybe a better question might be how is that not "thought-firing?" Your questions and concerns would be alarming and frightening to me if Damore had received a criminal indictment. He didn't, so I'm much less concerned about the case.

Your questions and concerns would be alarming and frightening to me if Damore had received a criminal indictment. He didn't, so I'm much less concerned about the case. That's the old canard about how, "it isn't the government." Google isn't the government, but they have incredibly broad power over modern media. Speech isn't free if it becomes open season on you by powerful entities for exercising it. The fact that Go…

> The fact that Google and YouTube are such extreme ideological echo chambers calls to question their stewardship of so much power in our society

Ridiculous nonsense.

Google and YouTube happily allow conservative, alt-right, fringe-right, pretty much any content on their platform. Fox News, Breitbart, Alex Jones, Milo etc all have channels on YouTube.

And there is zero evidence that Google is deliberately prioritising "left wing" content over other types.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#555

Post by leereeves »

xenadu02 wrote: post #546
leereeves wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His original memo did include references to scientific studies backing up his assertions, but several outside parties distributed the memo without these references.

This has been debunked a million times. He did no such thing. The one legit study he cited came to the opposite conclusion he claimed. Putting footnotes in a document doesn’t magically make them scientific research. Please stop repeating this trope.

Please stop making vapid assertions without evidence. Cite your sources.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#556

Post by SiVal »

surveilmebro wrote: post #412
Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

As someone who was an actual classmate of Damore, I can attest to his lack of character in this regard. I understand that the tone of his memo made it appear to have come from a thoughtful humanist, but this was a careful deception. In every social or professional encounter I've had with him, he's at least made somebody (particularly women) uncomfortable. In several cases these incidents led to meetings and reprimand…

Well, maybe you have insider knowledge about how much he actually disagrees with those on the left at Google--or maybe you don't.

But either way, those who are fully in the alt-left camp at Google seem to consider themselves completely free to make anyone who disagrees with them uncomfortable and to go far beyond that: to force them to undergo indoctrination "training", or to be fired outright to make examples of them to others who might be tempted to openly question leftist dogma that may or may not actually be correct.

At Google, those on the far left don't seem to feel the need for "careful deception" when it comes to expressing their opinions of/to coworkers they disagree with. They don't act as though they are required to make those with different opinions "feel safe". They have every reason for confidence, because "safety" just means "privilege": We get to blame and criticize you, but you aren't allowed to respond, because we (not you) are entitled to "safety".

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#557

Post by leereeves »

ncallaway wrote: post #463
leereeves wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably worth repeating: According to the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Act grants workers the legal right to discuss work-related issues with each other. https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights This comes from Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act: "Employees shall have the right to...engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual ai…

Yes, and the specific details of this case are not protected by the NLRA. Also according to the NLRB.

Yes, we all agree that's what the NLRB said. We're discussing how they came to this conclusion.

The lawyer who wrote this memo argued that Damore's statements would normally be deserving of protection, if they weren't so offensive.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#558

Post by itronitron »

stcredzero wrote: post #439
dragonwriter wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry, but some random nobody at Google having some wrong ideas about diversity policy does not deserve to be national front page news. Claims of anti-white-male discrimination in tech are man-bites-dog stories, and naturally get more attention for that reason, plus, Damore immediately sought out media with political biases to maximally promote that kind of story. It becoming national front page news and gettin…

No, it wasn't. It was public, but there was no assassination. It sure looked like an intellectually dishonest, ideologically fervent character assassination to me.

can you elaborate on what you mean by intellectually dishonest?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#559

Post by curyous »

adrianmonk wrote: post #523
dejawu wrote: post #210

The way this whole thing played out makes me sad, because the guy did bring up a good point - current-day social justice leaves little avenue for well-meaning but unaware (perhaps through privilege) people to start conversations and learn about the reasons and motivations for certain efforts such as affirmative action and changes in vocabulary. Damore was indeed punished for speaking out, just as he feared. Then he s…

> punished for speaking out It wasn't merely that he spoke out. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. Saying "women, on average, have more neuroticism" is not how you start a dialog. It's how you start an argument. Let's not debate whether it was a factual statement, but suffice it to say that "what I said was factual so there's nothing wrong with it!" isn't a defense. There are a million statements that a…

"women, on average, have more neuroticism" is provably true. It's been measured. It's a shame that we can't start a discussion with the truth

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#560

Post by ThomPete »

tptacek wrote: post #540
stcredzero wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. "The social compact" is your catch phrase, or at least it used to be.

I do believe in equality of opportunity, and do not believe we have it. You're familiar with what I think of tech management culture. Hiring, in particular, but none of the rest of it is any better. The idea that anyone would feel comfortable making assertions about things our field gets right offends me. As a profession, we're clowns.

As a profession, there is hardly a better one to be in for women. It's one of the highest paid, most flexible and equal opportunity professions there are.

All the biggest tech companies go out of their way to encourage women to the point where they favor women rather than men.

What industry does better when you look at it on a whole?

No one is claiming it's perfect but it's hardly filled with clowns IMO.

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