Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#501

Post by chiaro » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:25 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #474

Sabinus wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He was employed by Breitbart.

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He's an active and vocal critic of the Alt-Right. He devoted an entire chapter of his book to criticism of the Alt-Right. Just what views of his would you cite as "Alt-Right?" Can you back those up with quotes? As far as I can tell, he's an amoral opportunist who will stoop to saying vile things, but he's not Alt-Right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJfibQnTgU He was empl…

The leaked emails documenting his correspondence with various alt-right figureheads paints a different picture.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart...

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#502

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #499

ThomPete wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to see how easy it is to be defined as alt-right take a look at this tweet from someone here on HN who now claims that I love alt-right. https://twitter.com/albedoa/status/964709008559964161 That's how little it takes. It's really absurd.

Yet, in your reply, you question the fellow's literacy?? That's not acceptable. We have taken the art of discourse and replaced it with barbs designed wholly to get likes, or whatever the hell Twitter calls them now. This does not help anyone.

Not sure what you think I should have replied. He claims I have a love for the alt-right and his attempt is to shame me. I wrote that message and then muted him.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#503

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

1024core wrote: post #495

ThomPete wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does pointing out difference in interest and a pretty well-established fact that women on average are more cooperative by any metrics prove that he should have claimed that women do not belong on google? In fact, his point is that technology is not even for most men which he has made clear in other interviews.

> a pretty well-established fact that women on average are more cooperative Please, establish it for us. Point us to studies (and counter-studies) which state this fact of yours.

Wikipedia has lots of links to studies. There is also an overview of Gender differences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Ge...

"The difference in neuroticism was the most prominent and consistent, with significant differences found in 49 of the 55 nations surveyed."

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#504

Post by alexandercrohde » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

tdg wrote: post #426

alexandercrohde wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? Damore's memo doesn't mention intelligence or IQ at all [1], not even in the abstract or as distributions or as averages. -- Using the version of the memo cited on the wikipedia page https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversity...

It definitely mentions it. Here (section "Why we are blind"): "[...] the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" I don't know how else to read that other than "men are smarter". Is there any other reading?

You're taking that way out of context. He's not saying that the left denies IQ differences between the sexes, and it's sloppy to quote half a sentence. If you read that section, he's analyzing the psychology of the left and the right.

The full sentence, which you clipped is: Just as some on the Right deny science that runs counter to the “God > humans > environment” hierarchy (e.g., evolution and climate change), the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ8 and sex differences).

That is, that the left likes to pretend there are no IQ differences (between any two groups), nor that there are any psychology differences between the sexes [because it undermines their ideology, just as global warming undermines conservative ideology].

Though this may seem ambiguous, it's clear if you consider his footnote. [8]

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#505

Post by UncleMeat » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #278

Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed I'm frankly ashamed at the behavior of my classmates, who were so enthusiastically throwing him under the bus, without really knowing anything about him. I found it very odd that people who had no basis of judging his software engineering skills had very strong opinions about them. I'm reminded of a documentary film about North Korea, where during…

Software engineering skills are immaterial if you are making a considerable portion of a company with tens of thousands of employees uncomfortable and less productive. There is no way he was a net positive.

Team coherence and psychological safety are important, just as important as engineering skill. This is especially true at a large company.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#506

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #344

Reading the comments in this thread is disheartening. It mostly consists of either false claims of what Damore actually said or pre-conceived interpretations of his memo as being anti-diversity without a single, not a single reference to his memo.

My general impression is that because Damore is a big fat nobody whose career has already been flushed down the toilet by these events, it is a popular discussion to have precisely because it is relatively safe for anyone to give their 2 cents worth and explore how to talk about extremely divisive topics that can be quite dangerous to try to talk about. Kind of like it is popular to mock the Gor books because it is a safe way to express opinions about gender issues where it would not be safe to talk about actual real life situations where society expects women to be submissive and deferential.

So I really don't expect such discussions to be high quality. I think it has merit that it can happen at all, but my feeling is that much of the discussion swirling around the Damore memo is training wheels level discussion.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#507

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #496

stcredzero wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they make distinctions between the 4 major sub-groups? Molyneux is, as far as I know, a kooky Libertarian. Mainstream media is getting pretty skewed and desperate for eyeballs. If you're not shocked and dismayed, you're not looking very hard. Basically, in these death-throe days of old media news, you have to do your own fact checking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ykkHNRAro

I have no idea and honestly, at this point, I don't really care. For some reason, politics has become a game of zingers and one liners. Actual respectful discourse has gone out of style. Hell, I hopped over to Twitter to defend ThomPete against a very tasteless tweet. I dreamed that maybe, just maybe I could be involved in a conversation that revolved around mutual respect and well worded arguments. Instead, there wa…

What else should I have responded? Claiming I have love for the alt-right based on that post is absurd.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#508

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #486

stcredzero wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so, like everyone else, our candidate pipeline was male-dominated Doesn't a situation where the candidate pipeline is so skewed call to question the desirability of "equality of outcomes?" It would also make me question ideological doubling-down, and mob psychology behaviors like ridiculing managers who hadn't met quotas yet. Such behaviors in such a context, like that of the Google which James Damore described, stri…

"Equality of outcomes" is a political catch phrase, and not one I introduced into the conversation.

Right. "The social compact" is your catch phrase, or at least it used to be.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#509

Post by psyc » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #496

stcredzero wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they make distinctions between the 4 major sub-groups? Molyneux is, as far as I know, a kooky Libertarian. Mainstream media is getting pretty skewed and desperate for eyeballs. If you're not shocked and dismayed, you're not looking very hard. Basically, in these death-throe days of old media news, you have to do your own fact checking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ykkHNRAro

I have no idea and honestly, at this point, I don't really care. For some reason, politics has become a game of zingers and one liners. Actual respectful discourse has gone out of style. Hell, I hopped over to Twitter to defend ThomPete against a very tasteless tweet. I dreamed that maybe, just maybe I could be involved in a conversation that revolved around mutual respect and well worded arguments. Instead, there wa…

I'm right there with you. I'm in my 40s, and to me, your dialog is the normal and expected way for adults to discuss. I truly don't understand this brave new world of 'you're either with us, presenting a unified, jargon-tastic front, or you're a nazi/marxist'. So I mostly just don't speak to anyone anymore.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#510

Post by mcguire » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

gowld wrote: post #216

s73v3r_ wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he tried to use unrelated data on the biological differences between men and women to justify why Google shouldn't try to reach out more to women to diversify their workforce.

The memo had a section dedicated to changing Google to make it more welcoming to women. It mentioned "pair programming" as one female-friendly culture change.

"We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this)."