Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#491

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

stormbeta wrote: post #476

ThomPete wrote: post #344

Reading the comments in this thread is disheartening. It mostly consists of either false claims of what Damore actually said or pre-conceived interpretations of his memo as being anti-diversity without a single, not a single reference to his memo.

I think you have it backwards - this thread is full of people making excuses for Damore. And yes, I've read it. Just because he wrote some sentences that claimed he's in favor of diversity doesn't magically change the content of the rest of the memo. If he was truly arguing in good faith, he should've stuck to actual, demonstrable examples of issues or problems caused by the existing diversity practices. There was no…

I would also urge you to be more specific. Give me a specific example so we can discuss it. Just handwavy claims without any specifics is useless.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#492

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

stormbeta wrote: post #476

ThomPete wrote: post #344

Reading the comments in this thread is disheartening. It mostly consists of either false claims of what Damore actually said or pre-conceived interpretations of his memo as being anti-diversity without a single, not a single reference to his memo.

I think you have it backwards - this thread is full of people making excuses for Damore. And yes, I've read it. Just because he wrote some sentences that claimed he's in favor of diversity doesn't magically change the content of the rest of the memo. If he was truly arguing in good faith, he should've stuck to actual, demonstrable examples of issues or problems caused by the existing diversity practices. There was no…

It's quite strange, but if you read James Damore's memo at face value, you'll find Google and YouTube execs saying essentially the same thing in public:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrOp8ewzJDc

There was no need to go on long rambling tangents about population statistics that even he acknowledges aren't really relevant to the topic

It's certainly relevant. The "jury is still out" in terms of biology and gender preferences and how those are modulated by culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmyO3hbOz8

(Seriously, watch that, and tell me which side is intellectually open and honest, and which side comes across as ideologues.)

> "Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions."

You'll note that most of the memo seems to be implying the opposite.

"Seems to be implying." You are essentially admitting to an ideologically skewed, imputational reading.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#493

Post by gameswithgo » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:20 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #297

tptacek wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the course of making point 3, he violated Google's anti-harassment policies, and the NLRB defers to companies as to the reasonableness of their anti-harassment policies, because a different federal law that NLRB does not manage requires companies to have anti-harassment policies. If he'd been arguing for better office furniture and Google claimed to fire him over violations of an anti-harassment policy, th…

he violated Google's anti-harassment policies For just asking a question? If even entertaining a thought with regards to science, if it doesn't "seem nice" through some narrow ideological lens, has become a crime, then we're already at the level of Lysenkoism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism he was arguing about biological differences between men and women and how they might impact the distribution of male a…

>There are biological differences that make the population of Asian NBA pros much smaller than otherwise, and the population of high level Kenyan marathon competitors higher than otherwise.

Those are great examples because nobody is totally sure of those things either.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#494

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:20 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #472

ThomPete wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am naive it should be perfectly easy to point to where I am wrong. I am not sure what agenda exactly you think I am pushing.

Is this not you? https://twitter.com/Hello_World/status/956166173019836416 https://twitter.com/Hello_World/status/928650370104152065 https://twitter.com/Hello_World/status/867119704569237505 If someone is parroting a Peter Thiel quote in November of 2017 it's pretty obvious what agenda they are pushing. You, and Damore and so many others, are trying to dress up the regressive status quo as if it's something new, some…

What is my agenda?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#495

Post by 1024core » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #366

skywhopper wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a couple: Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people- oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing th…

How does pointing out difference in interest and a pretty well-established fact that women on average are more cooperative by any metrics prove that he should have claimed that women do not belong on google? In fact, his point is that technology is not even for most men which he has made clear in other interviews.

> a pretty well-established fact that women on average are more cooperative

Please, establish it for us. Point us to studies (and counter-studies) which state this fact of yours.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#496

Post by hluska » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #483

hluska wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Politico and the Washington Post describe Molyneux as alt-right. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/trump-alt-ri... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/...

Do they make distinctions between the 4 major sub-groups? Molyneux is, as far as I know, a kooky Libertarian. Mainstream media is getting pretty skewed and desperate for eyeballs. If you're not shocked and dismayed, you're not looking very hard. Basically, in these death-throe days of old media news, you have to do your own fact checking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ykkHNRAro

I have no idea and honestly, at this point, I don't really care. For some reason, politics has become a game of zingers and one liners. Actual respectful discourse has gone out of style.

Hell, I hopped over to Twitter to defend ThomPete against a very tasteless tweet. I dreamed that maybe, just maybe I could be involved in a conversation that revolved around mutual respect and well worded arguments. Instead, there was ThomPete questioning his critic's literacy???

This shit has to stop. When I was younger, we used to be able to have conversations like:

Me - I believe ________.

You - I disagree because ________, __________, and __________.

Me - Good points, but what about _______?

Today, conversations like that just don't exist. I'm sick and tired of this shit and frankly, I want to disengage.

But seriously, we need genuine discourse. We have to leave the hurtful barbs at the schoolyard and actually speak to each other like respectful adults. Fuck all of this division. It's leading us all down a horrible path.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#497

Post by tacomonstrous » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:23 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #390

ThomPete wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to anywhere in his memo where he claims that men and women's cognitive level is different? Again I have read this quite a few times and I don't see it. So can you point me to exactly where he claims that?

These kinds of objections will draw approving nods from people who already agree with you, but to everyone else, the implication that differences in IQ variance between men and women lead the "top of the curve" to be naturally overpopulated with men is exactly what it sounds like: a claim for the intellectual superiority of men. Sure, there are dumb men; maybe they're even dumber than the dumbest women! But if you're…

This is the funny thing. It's one thing to use this distribution to explain the gender disparity among Nobel laureates. Employing it to explain the same disparity in Google employees is just laughable. As someone who teaches college math at what one might call an 'elite' institution, I've found no difference between the abilities of students based on gender. If anything, the girls are better because they have to be better to be taken as seriously as an equivalent guy.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#498

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:23 AM UTC

skywhopper wrote: post #350

ThomPete wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to where he says any of what you claim? I have read that memo quite a few time and see no such claims anywhere.

Here's a couple: Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people- oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing th…

As it happens, this excerpt is borne out at all points by the research on the "Big 5" personality traits, which to date are the clearest results in psychology outside of the power of General Intelligence to affect life outcomes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfI4BEONsng

I would also note, that Google often seems to fall down in terms of taking into account how changes in software affect the people who are their users.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#499

Post by hluska » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:24 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #473

ThomPete wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stefan Molyneux is not alt-right where do you get that idea from? Milo was one of the most hated people by the alt-right, his husband is black, how much more do you need for him to most probably no being alt-right?. I refuse to believe that anyone who sincerely and honestly spent any time looking into the actual opinions of Milo, Ben Shapiro, Molyneux etc and not just cherry-picked soundbites would make such claims a…

If you want to see how easy it is to be defined as alt-right take a look at this tweet from someone here on HN who now claims that I love alt-right. https://twitter.com/albedoa/status/964709008559964161 That's how little it takes. It's really absurd.

Yet, in your reply, you question the fellow's literacy?? That's not acceptable.

We have taken the art of discourse and replaced it with barbs designed wholly to get likes, or whatever the hell Twitter calls them now. This does not help anyone.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#500

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 4:24 AM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #482

ThomPete wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then perhaps Google shouldn't ask for feedback on their courses. Seems rather disingenuous to say the least.

> Then perhaps Google shouldn't ask for feedback on their courses. Seems rather disingenuous to say the least. My impression is that he circulated his “feedback” among employees. I would be surprised if that was requested by Google.

He was encouraged like anyone else who took the course to provide feedback after a diversity program that he attended.

That's how it started.