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Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

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481–490 of 536 posts

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#481

To get a little meta: I think discussions like these make progress, but very slow progress. I think the root of the issue for many people is more than factual at this point, it's become emotional for both sides. And I think progress will come when both sides can get a handle on their frustrations and then articulate their feelings gracefully. At the end of the day, I think only a very small percentage of people comme…

Why is it accepted that feelings should be relevant here? I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm genuinely open to listen to your response to that. To paraphrase Data O'Briain, "zombies are at an all-time low but the fear of zombies could be incredibly high, doesn't mean we should have government policies to deal with the fear of zombies": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zopCDSK69gs If we're getting meta, I think that…

We are optimizing for the minimization of outrage from mainstream and social media. There's not much else to go on.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#482
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with silencing tactics currently in use that doesn't seem to be understood by those using them is that there is no such tactic that works in the voting booth. As long as we have secret ballots, the Shy Tory Effect is going continue to catch the censorship crowd off guard. I doubt this is going to be kept on simmer because we're already past that point. To continue the analogy, the pot will eventually boil…

I personally don't see how we get out of this toxic situation with our Republic intact.

We work for it.

I know that sounds simple, but it really it. We get to work and we fix it.

Are you in Denver? Let's meet up if so and talk about trying to fix this mess.

If any other HNer is in Denver, the invitation stands. Let's meet up and talk and try to fix it.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#483
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Equality" is the sticking point. Equality of opportunity (meritocracy) or equality of outcome (sounds like a nasty place where people are selected on things like race, or gender)?

How can you be 100% sure there's been equality of opportunity unless an equality if outcome metric has been satisfied?

Well, nothing is 1005 in this world. But say go for 85%. Still, you can measure along the way and talk to people in the 'pipeline'.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#484
post #479
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the flip side too. I wouldn't want to be known as the diversity hire. I want to be judged on my work and my skills. Not on what chromosomes I carry or what my melenin level is. The more we keep framing things in the context of hiring to meet gender based quotas, the more people will see us as diversity hires. I would hate that more than knowing someone doesn't like me because of my gender because that person…

Will it help if I preemptively refer to myself as "diversity hire" as a joke?

Not the same, but as someone who is still as an adult growing out of being "the weird/socially inept/imposter syndrome kid":

Don't think about it. Of many valid reasons to work to change ones behavior, I don't think this is one of them. All that effort you were spending trying to change something that 1. may not be happening and 2. if it is, is "pretty damn typical human psychology" (It's as old as humanity to find ways to look down on others) and there's not really pragmatic ways to stop that short of a lobotomy. Spend that effort on excelling in what you do. Bust ass and the people who matter will respect you regardless, and it makes it easier to tune out the ones who don't.

Feel free to ignore this advice, I've long since decided to avoid commenting in threads like the overarching, but your original concerns and question made me want to try and contribute at least something marginal :)

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#485
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the whole point of almost every kind activism is to change what has so far been called the traditional way of life -- from the struggle of the plebeians and patricians in ancient Rome, through the French Revolution and abolition to women's suffrage and desegregation (and even, you could say, that of vegetarians) -- because the traditional way of life distributes power unequally (that's an objective fact) and unfa…

> The real argument is this: do you think that women should (meaning that it is our priority as a society to make that happen, and that means changing things) have equal power or not? I'm not sure what equal power means, nor what changes would help bring that about. By the way, I don't think people who want to change the current distribution of power are "obsessed", but it's hard for me to know what a fair distributi…

> I'm not sure what equal power means, nor what changes would help bring that about.

I think equal power means just that (see [1] for definitions of power), and as to what actions would bring that about, that's a matter of debate among progressives. But the main question is whether you want to bring it about with all the social change that entails; conservatives generally don't (they find the status quo satisfactory, and some even want to roll the clock back). My main issue is not with conservatives who admit their conservativeness, but with those who've convinced themselves that their conservative and (sometimes extremely so) values aren't conservative but neutral. If you don't think social action of any kind should be taken to change the current power distribution in society (and let alone if you want to roll back changes already made), then you're advocating for conservative policy. Wanting to do nothing is conservative by definition, and it means that your values are such that you find the status quo preferable over a change in the distribution of power.

> It's also likely that due to unfair distribution of personality traits among the population that a fair distribution of power is unlikely in practice unless enforced on society.

No, because we're talking about statistical distribution, not an equality among all individuals.

> I also think women and men have different values and priorities in life, in part due to women's fertility declining sooner than men's. It's hard to have a high-status job and it's extremely hard to care for young children while doing a high-status job.

That is a largely irrelevant question (or a secondary one [2]). The question is whether you want to change society so that women and men have equal power (statistically).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

[2]: That's because we can ask why that's so. No biological basis for that has been proven and even if biological factors play a significant roles, we constantly use technology to overcome biological limitations to achieve desirable goals. For example, biology is certainly a 100% complete explanation for humans' inability to fly, but because we've deemed flight desirable, we overcame that limitation with technology. I always find it amusing how people who normally see technology as a solution to many problems and are reluctant to admit defeat use the slightest hint for small biological effects as a satisfactory explanation that some change cannot or should not be achieved.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed in than the computer software industry. Can we rank these fields by day to day... sociability? Or how solitary they are? Say, by the number of coworkers you talk to on a given day for a given number of hours. Or the amount of time you spend not at all speaking, and staring at a screen? Can we approximate th…

I think there's something to the communication angle... Part of why I like computers is that I can spend my day not talking to these fucking apes that infest this planet -- present company excluded, of course. I say this as someone who's not a social moron, who's recognized as an excellent teacher, and who's actually interested in team-dynamics and debugging miscommunication. If I'd wanted to be a social worker -- I…

> As I got to know them, the data scientist confessed that she didn't really like the math and wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't so lucrative.

Your expectations are pretty high if realizing this led you to be disappointed. Not expectations of your SO in particular, but in general about people.

I think this is inherent to most people - they generally don't enjoy the job they do, but they do it still to pay the bills and secure for yourself some form of retirement and safety net in your later years.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#487
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is strong evidence that women are kept out of STEM I might be boiling down your comment down to that one line, but it such a common line that I feel the need to point out some data. Here in Sweden about 12.5% of the population, men and women, work in a profession where the gender segregation is not higher than 150% dominance for a single gender. The other 87.5% of the population all work in a profession which…

The US is not Sweden. In the US, you die or your kids starve if you don’t have enough money. So when you see a statistic that women have the altitude to go into a high paying career disproportionately to their actual representation, it’s harder to dismiss that just by saying “oh they must prefer to do something else.” Beyond that, I’m not inclined to believe that Sweden really is more gender equal. It seems based on…

> In the US, you die or your kids starve if you don’t have enough money.

We do have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assista...

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#488
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or cool dude teaching them at school. More men at education -> more positions in tech for women. As well as more women looking for these positions. Can't wait for the next campaign to make men 50:50 in kindergardens and schools!

It's when you talk about young men in kinder gardens that you realize how ridiculous this whole discussion truly is. There will never be 50:50 young men to young women in kinder gardens. Not even 20:80. That much is obvious. Most young men do not like to be with children. Most young women do not like working in car repair. While none of these claims are sufficiently substantiated in research, if the first can be true…

IMO the only reason is that IT looks relatively clean and easy job for nice money.

Although after working in the field for over a decade, I don't really think that's true. While it's clean physically, mentally it's totally different story. Personally I'm on the line if I want to keep doing what I love or if I switch to something more sane.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toilet paper is often taxed too, but of course it doesn't fit the narrative.

You can use a bidet instead and never buy any toilet paper. If you are a woman you need to buy some sanitary products at least once a month.

It's more like men bodies have more robust design, thus they get away with less items.

It's like women-day-off when they're on their period. On one hand, it'd be nice and makes sense. On the other hand, that sex-based discrimination.

Meanwhile over there we got flat VAT for everything. No tampon tax issues! :) Paying extra 21% for basic food sucks though.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#490

To get a little meta: I think discussions like these make progress, but very slow progress. I think the root of the issue for many people is more than factual at this point, it's become emotional for both sides. And I think progress will come when both sides can get a handle on their frustrations and then articulate their feelings gracefully. At the end of the day, I think only a very small percentage of people comme…

Why is it accepted that feelings should be relevant here? I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm genuinely open to listen to your response to that. To paraphrase Data O'Briain, "zombies are at an all-time low but the fear of zombies could be incredibly high, doesn't mean we should have government policies to deal with the fear of zombies": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zopCDSK69gs If we're getting meta, I think that…

Feelings get in the way of changing minds. Ignoring your own or your opponents' feelings doesn't make them go away.

Take a look at the article. How is someone who is concerned about sex differences in representation going to feel when they read, "Many academics in the modern world seem obsessed with the sex difference..."?

The article shoots itself in the foot in the first sentence. It's not going to change minds because it doesn't consider feelings.

Writing in a way that gets the facts right, and uses good arguments, and is worded in a way that doesn't turn off your opponents is hard. But it can be done. I think slatestarcodex.com often does it (though not always).

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