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Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

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141–150 of 536 posts

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#141
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality of Chance is more desirable than Equality of Outcome as it values the decisions of a neutral individual more than the later. Of course, for Equality of Chance to be properly implemented you need to do away with as many barriers to it as possible but you should be willing to accept that no matter what you do, there won't be a perfect 50/50. From all evidence we have, there is strong evidence that male and fem…

> Equality of Chance is more desirable than Equality of Outcome as it values the decisions of a neutral individual more than the later. More desirable to whom? To the one with the worse outcome equality of outcome will always be more desirable than equality of chance. Plus, from a probabilistic point of view, wouldn't equal chances mean that for large numbers of trials (people) the outcome would also be equal? > I wo…

>Plus, from a probabilistic point of view, wouldn't equal chances mean that for large numbers of trials (people) the outcome would also be equal?

Yes. For most people those two options would be the same, which is why the difference between those two options matter.

Equality of Chance merely means that everyone gets a shot at becoming, for example, a Math PhD. You still have to put in as much elbow grease as everyone else and work just as hard as everyone else. If female and male humans are equivalent mentally then the end result should be a 50/50 distribution.

If there are mental differences then the distribution would be skewed but it would be fine since everyone has gotten the same chance as everyone else. It's the approach with the highest game-theoretic fairness; the chance of winning the game is directly related to the skill you bring to the table.

>You cannot even properly define what you mean by "brain and/or mind",

With brain I mean just that, I don't know why it lacks definition. I mean the raw organ of thought in the human skull. There are notable differences, as mentioned, found at early stages in the brain that are sufficient for a computer or human to identify the gender or sex of an individual with a higher-than-chance probability.

With mind I was refering to the mental capacity and properties of an individual, ie how good they are at math, their social skills, IQ score, pain tolerance, etc (these are just example categories, not necessarily categories in which a significant difference exists).

>which is why it's impossible to convince you that there actually is injustice if your opinion relies on that

It is certainly possible to convine me of the opposite, I have clearly formulated which evidence would be sufficient.

>Then why would we have to adjust our society to it, as it would benefit from less social tensions if there was equal outcome?

That question feels slightly loaded since it proposes that an equal outcome leads to less tension. Current movements concerned with an inequality of outcome do only so because it is unfairly inequal.

Not a lot of people complain when the outcome of the game is inequal but fair (for example, nobody minds that someone with low strength will be unable to participate in olympic weight lifting, there is an unequal chance of participation and outcome, but it's a fair process)

The resolution to the problem of "do we have to adjust society" is another question "is the reason we are suggesting to change due to a fair or unfair process?".

[footnote]: Fair and unfair are defined as the ability of a player to apply their skills and get an equal amount of reward to other players with the same skill level (or with neglible difference)

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#142
post #48

What's really annoying about this is that women are not underrepresented in STEM careers! The article mentions if anything, they are overrepresented in the life sciences, and are only underrepresented in math at the doctoral level. The issue is that we are suddenly defining STEM as computer science and engineering only, and that those are apparently the only worthwhile aspects of STEM. The sexism thing and message th…

I don't think it's just Engineering and Maths that have a problem. There's this joke where someone says "A man and his son are in a car crash and they're taken to hospital. The doctor sees the child and goes 'Oh no! It's my son!'". Then they ask you "who is the doctor"? The point is that you are supposed to struggle with the answer because you can't imagine the doctor to be the boy's mother. That there exists an assu…

What if it's a gay couple? Kind of subverts the joke. Interesting how the joke only works when we lock ourselves in the past.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This “war” has been going on for centuries. The difference is that white men were totally dominating it until recent times, and a lot of them really don’t like that they may need to adapt behavior. African Americans had a right side of the street to walk on within the last 2 generations, for risk of being lynched. You better believe they’ve been parsing every word out of their mouths, not for fear of being labeled a…

Most men I know are pretty heavily in favour of equality. That might change if we treat equality as a war against men, instead of something we all work towards. Adapting behavior is reasonable, but there's men also need to be able to have a voice, or you're going to get some major pushback. Hopefully we can keep this kind of war at a low simmer when trump is up for re-election. More specifically, that means making su…

Yes, we shouldn't treat equality as a a "war against men". I think we all learned our lesson from the "War against Christmas" when after early victories the Christians somehow caught on to our plan to distribute plain red cups in Starbucks and be considerate of those who celebrate other holidays around the same time.

With the element of surprise gone we had no nope of crushing them under our athiest/muslim/jewish/hindu/sikh/pagan/christian-that-doesn't-watch-fox-news heels and had to retreat.

So yes, tactically disguising our true aims under the banner of "equality" is definately a good plan and the only way to actually defeat men. Good thinking sister.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#144
post #44
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just note that believing something because it has nice consequences is just logically wrong. Formally: 1) A => B 2) I would really like B to be true, because it has some benefits. 3) Therefore A must be true. If we are in search of truth and want to build a consistent model of the world then we just can't accept this kind of reasoning. Also, even if A really turns out to be false, it doesn't mean that B can't be true…

First, please do not get too hung up about "all people are created equal". It's just an example in this context. > If we are in search of truth and want to build a consistent model of the world then we just can't accept this kind of reasoning. Yes, you can. It's called generalizing. Remember, we're not doing math here, this is ethics. Think about all the different situations where being treated equally to someone els…

>> If we are in search of truth and want to build a consistent model of the world then we just can't accept this kind of reasoning.

> Yes, you can. It's called generalizing. Remember, we're not doing math here, this is ethics.

To strive for a consistent set of beliefs grounded in reality is more akin to most branches of Philosophy than Mathematics as far as I am concerned, and seems particularly concerning to Ethics (e.g. you can achieve a set of beliefs of what you can consider 'good' or 'evil' ignoring all perception of reality but would the result be desirable?).

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#145
post #36
post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

Lest we forget, it isn't only charismatically-challenged unfortunates like Damore who get thrown under a tank for daring to speak 'out of turn' wrt the social justice narrative. Just two hours ago, I happened to re-read the various vicious hit pieces written about Paul Graham several years ago, after he had the gall to speak his mind about representation. These are the times. Everywhere I look online, it's men vs. wo…

"charismatically-challenged unfortunates like Damore"

Maybe I am on the autistic spectrum, or ots teh fact I studied science but i thought that Damore's memo was fairly well written. First time I went through it he made a couple of points where I though to myself "that sounds controversial", but then in every case he had backed it up with some study validating it to some extent.

It was certainly a lot better written than the majority of the media's reporting on it.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone with vouching powers vouch for SidiousL? He appears to have been shadowbanned for no discernible reason.

How can you tell if someone is shadowbanned? I thought shadowbanned people can’t have their comments seen by others.

There's a setting in your profile called showdead and it can be set to yes or no. If set to no you won't see it. Otherwise you will.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#147
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's normal and ok if being wrong got him fired? No matter, as that isn't what got him fired. He was fired because it's good optics in this climate. And I'm asserting the climate isn't good.

Yes, because he was wrong about something that he had no business or expertise or business position to even be discussing, and because he did it in a very loud way. Damore got what he wanted, he wanted to be a martyr, probably because that was all he was ever going to be good for. He’s the truest of snowflakes, stop giving idiots this platform and maybe they’ll go away.

To me that reads like a lot like credentialism. "Unless you've been formally vetted by the institutions we like you can't participate". It's like a bizzarro-world anti-intellectualism, where you can't read a scientific paper unless you have the right degree in that particular sub-field.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#148

I'm a PhD student at a UK university. From what I've seen in my department (Engineering) there are about 3 women for every 5 men, both in staff and students, a not unreasonable ratio. However, I struggle to remember more than a couple of women who are British or from an English-speaking country. The majority come from India, China, the rest of Europe, the Middle East etc. I've also seen this in the six years I worked…

Casual lay observer here (i.e., don't treat this as coming from a position of being deeply informed). The phenomenon you describe sounds similar to the 'Nordic gender paradox' (or variations of the term). It's been a while since I last touched on it and I can't easily find a source worth pointing to - at least, one that hasn't been presented through a political lens - and academic names on the subject don't come to mind just now.

Essentially, despite various attempts to get to 'equal' gender outcomes in the most 'equitable' societies in the world, participation in jobs and industries associated with men and women remains stubbornly unmoved towards 50:50 (or whatever proportion is considered desirable). The suggestion is that it's precisely the relatively equitable and liberal norms of those societies that have provided the conditions for women to make use of their agency and choose roles according to their preferences. Whereas women in societies less predisposed towards liberal norms may be motivated by other considerations, such as the need to maximise their earning potential, familial expectations of success or a stronger sense of needing to prove one's potential and achievement (including perceptions of gender in their own societies). In the instance of the anecdote about your Greek colleagues, I wondered if the financial crisis was a catalyst for greater participation, along with the current trend of Greeks' tendency towards staying in HE for longer?

I've probably made mistakes or mischaracterised aspects of this idea, but that's broadly how I understand it. It doesn't answer the why of 'systems/things' vs 'people' (which has more accessible academic discourse than this does), although I think it offers a different perspective on biases that may be in play.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#149
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's normal and ok if being wrong got him fired? No matter, as that isn't what got him fired. He was fired because it's good optics in this climate. And I'm asserting the climate isn't good.

Does suggesting that feminism, the civil rights and the LGBT movement are actually jewish-marxists plots to destroy American capitalism in a memo about diversity you distribute at work count as "being wrong"? I mean it is wrong of course. It doesn't even make sense. Which gender Tim Cook prefers to see naked seems unrelated to running an efficient supply chain for one of the largest corporations on the planet. But ge…

> actually jewish-marxists plots

Where did you see the word "Jewish". I didn't see it when I read the text, it's not in the relevant footnote, and I did a search and didn't find it.

Regarding the Marxist part: I'm not an expert on this but I believe it's called "critical theory" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This “war” has been going on for centuries. The difference is that white men were totally dominating it until recent times, and a lot of them really don’t like that they may need to adapt behavior. African Americans had a right side of the street to walk on within the last 2 generations, for risk of being lynched. You better believe they’ve been parsing every word out of their mouths, not for fear of being labeled a…

Most men I know are pretty heavily in favour of equality. That might change if we treat equality as a war against men, instead of something we all work towards. Adapting behavior is reasonable, but there's men also need to be able to have a voice, or you're going to get some major pushback. Hopefully we can keep this kind of war at a low simmer when trump is up for re-election. More specifically, that means making su…

"Equality" is the sticking point.

Equality of opportunity (meritocracy) or equality of outcome (sounds like a nasty place where people are selected on things like race, or gender)?

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