Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies • Hacker News Board

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#371

Post by lgleason » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

Unfortunately, even if you are one of the under-represented people, discourse that does not fit into the narrative is met with open hostility in this new world we live in. A great example of that is what this women experienced https://medium.com/@marlene.jaeckel/the-empress-has-no-cloth...

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#372

Post by jenthoven » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

zxxon wrote: post #344

jenthoven wrote: post #244

I’m a CS graduate and female founder. I disagree with many parts of this essay, but I actually agree with this part: “The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science“ I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisti…

>> ...the truth is that they have beautiful offices, close-knit teams, a lifestyle with time for friends, a lot of influence, and a huge impact on real people’s lives through the software they create. That's not "the truth", that's your experience in the amusement park that has been created for the pampered developers of the current dotcom bubble at companies like Google. Enjoy it while it lasts. Regardless of gender…

Fair, I apologize for generalizing. You're right that Google is an outlier in this way. But I still think that there's a perception that CS is more anti-social than it actually is, and a perception that other professions are more social than they actually are.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#373

Post by bluthru » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

door2 wrote: post #360

bluthru wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Women are socially smarter What does this mean? Do women talk more? Yes. Is it substantive? Women are more willing to talk about their feelings but they also can be quite indirect compared to a man. Women also have a reputation of being more adversarial and catty: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/opinion/sunday/why-women-...

You’re a misogynist

The parent above me said "Women are socially smarter, so they are aware of that. Men are clueless" and I didn't resort to calling them a misandrist. Let's stick to talking about the issue at hand.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#374

Post by jeffreyrogers » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

mhneu wrote: post #341

Info about Quillette (the source of this article): https://theoutline.com/post/2307/quillette-claire-lehmann-co... Conservatives love playing the victim The website Quillette is trying to convince people conservatism is subversive. Unsurprisingly, Quillette has become a hub for reactionary thought. The website, which started publishing in 2015 and is funded by a modest Patreon account, The best way to get a sense of…

The site you quote on Quillette doesn't seem very objective.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#375

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

door2 wrote: post #368

rvo wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the flip side too. I wouldn't want to be known as the diversity hire. I want to be judged on my work and my skills. Not on what chromosomes I carry or what my melenin level is. The more we keep framing things in the context of hiring to meet gender based quotas, the more people will see us as diversity hires. I would hate that more than knowing someone doesn't like me because of my gender because that person…

Maybe that’s the problem of sexist and racist white men who can’t believe that a woman or PoC could possibly be here based on merit and always treat them with suspicion. It’s not the fault of people trying to fix the problem.

[deleted]

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#376

Post by IIAOPSW » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

psyc wrote: post #36

scarmig wrote: post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

Lest we forget, it isn't only charismatically-challenged unfortunates like Damore who get thrown under a tank for daring to speak 'out of turn' wrt the social justice narrative. Just two hours ago, I happened to re-read the various vicious hit pieces written about Paul Graham several years ago, after he had the gall to speak his mind about representation. These are the times. Everywhere I look online, it's men vs. wo…

>I've identified as left-leaning my entire life, but I've never for a moment feared this sort of personal sabotage from a right-leaning person.

I tend to attribute this type of thing to what I call the "identity politics" wing of the left. In a Parliamentary system they probably would be in a different party than you.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#377

Post by pthreadses » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #304

natch wrote: post #9

it’s fine and valid to research whether people encounter improper bias in their careers, which is clearly often the case. But their discussion is incomplete without at least recognition of another possible partial cause of gender disparity in tech, the fact that many sexist anti-STEM cues are given to children at a much earlier stage, way before careers are even on the horizon. These cues are delivered by parents, te…

While this theory makes sense, I find a rather large issue with it. The basis for this argument is that both boys and girls are equally likely at birth to go into a given field. As they grow society gives cues to them that X is for boys and Y is for girls. These cues end up shaping preference and explain the large difference we see in the ratio of boys/girls in X. The issue I have with this theory is that it shouldn'…

I think a major issue with CS in particular is that the numbers have actually gone down significantly in the past few decades:

> Before 1970, women took between 10% and 15% of computer science bachelor’s degrees. By the early 1980s, the number rose to 37%. However, the trend began to reverse in 1985. In 2013, 18% of bachelor’s degrees in computing were earned by women. Part of this decline is due to the fact that computer science became a male-identified field. But during the 1990s, hiring practices also began to favor men, according to the AAUW study, and “the creation of professional organizations, networks, and hierarchies” that supported the entry of men into the field helped pushed women out. In fact, as the study notes, once employed in the field, women are more likely to leave than men. They tend to suffer from isolation.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/26/report-the-number-of-women-ent...

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#378

Post by itsmenotyou » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

I think the idea that people are being silenced from discussing the issue honestly is totally disingenuous. I see far more posts from people on HN about not being able to discuss the issue than I do posts actually trying to discuss the issue. I don't think I've ever seen people shut down for expressing reasonable if contentious opinions, yet somehow everyone has this idea that there can't be a reasonable discussion about it. Yes the discussion may be heated, and some more extreme viewpoints should justifiably be considered beyond the pale, but that doesn't explain the level of paranoia I see around here.

The effect of this is to reframe the debate from the actual issue at hand, into a debate about how we discuss it. The way we discuss it does matter, but the level of attention that gets around here feels like bikeshedding.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#379

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

jenthoven wrote: post #244

I’m a CS graduate and female founder. I disagree with many parts of this essay, but I actually agree with this part: “The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science“ I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisti…

During my career, I’ve noticed many female programmers and even PhD-level researchers switching to PM roles. PM and UX have better representations than developer roles, though I don’t think that this should be counted as success towards the overall problem.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#380

Post by jeffreyrogers » Thu, Feb 15, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #369

Why does this article keep conflating gender and sex? As supposed academics, they know there's multiple of both, and they don't always coincide - right?

Humans have male or female genitalia (outside of some rare cases) and gender corresponds to what sex organs you have, no? So there are two of each, right?