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Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

quillette.com

341–350 of 536 posts

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#341
Info about Quillette (the source of this article):

https://theoutline.com/post/2307/quillette-claire-lehmann-co...

Conservatives love playing the victim The website Quillette is trying to convince people conservatism is subversive.

Unsurprisingly, Quillette has become a hub for reactionary thought. The website, which started publishing in 2015 and is funded by a modest Patreon account,

The best way to get a sense of the typical Quillette reader is by perusing the comments section under any essay, especially those about feminism and the leftist threat to western civilization. Quillette’s readers see themselves as inheritors of the western tradition of dispassionate, boring debate instead of what they likely are: people trying to kill time at work by sounding off in the comments. They hate “leftist identitarians” and “corrosive marxists” who ruin this dispassionate, boring debate by deigning to have an emotional stake in the subjects they study.

It's also important to keep in mind that 90% of hard science professors lean liberal (PKrugman, paraphrased: because those whose jobs involve evaluating facts tend to reject propaganda). And that US conservatives have a propaganda agenda to attack universities:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/12/a-hist...

Yet the trope of portraying American universities as a threat to society emerged with particular intensity in the 1970s and ‘80s. Neoconservatives including the journalist Irving Kristol and the philosopher Allan Bloom developed a discourse around what they saw as the moral laxity and corrosiveness of the 1960s counterculture.

In other words, when it comes to America’s colleges and universities, conservative anxiety is best expressed as being about a small set of marquee positions of honor and prestige in the liberal arts that happen to be largely staffed at present by those whose political commitments lean left

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism* is rampant. It is not merely present in threads where the link is about gender studies. You cannot "block it out" like you would any other topic. It is not a "topic of discussion" but an issue lurking behind other topics. *Sexism has can take many shapes others than direct attacks on women. Edit: Interesting how this went from +5 to -5 in minutes. Very controversial topic, eh?

I guess this doesn't answer my question. What's the ask here? OP suggested this discussion was "incredibly distressing," I'm unclear if anybody is entertaining the notion that a debate among dozens cannot happen because one person wanders in who's distressed by it, or what?

Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a rhetorical question.

Of course she doesn't want the community to censor itself.

She is describing how such discussions are distressing to women (and not merely to herself, as you seem to state). She gives the example of an aspiring programmer stumbling on HN, noticing all the subtle sexism and giving up STEM. Which is precisely the issue that we should be debating.

In short, her point isn't "don't talk about it" but "don't be a bigot about it". Don't talk about it as if women weren't reading the threads. As if amongst boys.

A lot of those threads end up circle-jerking into a "men vs. women" debate while the actual debate should be "what is it in our communities that is driving women away?"

My point in that reply was that she shouldn't be the one blocking those threads, her point of view as a woman is vital in such a debate. It should be us that act more civilized instead.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#343
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A female relative was considering a career change, but even though the salary and perks sounded nice, the work itself seemed meaningless to her. Another friend did make the jump, mostly for the money and career opportunities and she's struggling and feeling a bit demotivated. The CS theory is quite hard, and it's not something she's especially interested in. These anecdotes don't prove anything, but I've been thinkin…

> "Having to spend their free time studying just to keep up with the latest fashion, doing overtime, going through the interview gauntlet every damn time, getting shafted by incompetent business leaders and managers." This is why my wife left the industry to be a full-time mom/homemaker. The problems she solves are more rewarding and the time/energy she spends on things are more worth it according to her. Why would s…

A lot of people would take the opportunity of someone to go to work for them while they spent time in the great outdoors with the kids.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#344

I’m a CS graduate and female founder. I disagree with many parts of this essay, but I actually agree with this part: “The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science“ I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisti…

>> ...the truth is that they have beautiful offices, close-knit teams, a lifestyle with time for friends, a lot of influence, and a huge impact on real people’s lives through the software they create.

That's not "the truth", that's your experience in the amusement park that has been created for the pampered developers of the current dotcom bubble at companies like Google. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Regardless of gender, I'd rather have the doubters weeded out by an unrealistic negative perception than have them lured in by an unrealistic positive one.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#345
post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

FWIW, I often read about these PC-related things in the US (and sometimes Canada). Much less so in Europe, although they start playing catch-up with their new hate speech laws. As a German I can (mostly) speak my mind about men vs women, the only minefield there is IMO (remotely) Nazi-related stuff, e.g., try to criticize Israel foreign policy or mass immigration.

I have dual German - Canadian citizenship, and I've been surprised at how paternalistic German men can be in their expectations or comments around women's careers and child-rearing responsibilities.

If you're a technically-minded woman, who's more interested in her career than being a wet-nurse, you've got problems no matter where you're living.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#346
post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

Implying that women are worse (upbringing related or not) at spatial and mathematical abstraction skills is taboo for the exact same reason that saying the same about black people is.

Making these claims simply adds hurdles for an already disadvantaged group. When claims like this get made it acts as subconscious, or even conscious, justification for the biases of some of the readers/listeners. I.e. simply making the claim adds to the problem.

I agree that this isn't fair, but worrying about that is selfish. It is perfectly acceptable to attempt to formulate solutions based on these beliefs, but vocalizing the the beliefs rather than the solutions in public is harmful.

Regardless, arguments that present this logic feel like a desperate attempt to shunt responsibility to someone else. Women used to be well represented in computer science. This is no longer true, and I suspect that the blame for that lies all over the spectrum.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#347

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

> Clearly, they have something else in common. We just need to figure out what it is.

Have you also considered a possibility that there is no explanation, and the gap is simply due to internal variability in the underlying dynamical system?

Although personally I favor the "different interests" explanation, let me expand on this a bit. Humans love explanations, even of random events, that's how superstition comes about.

There was an interesting biological experiment done with ants. If you put two identical piles of food the same distance from an anthill, you would intuitively expect that ants will eat from each pile in 50/50 ratio. However, it's not what happens; in reality, the ratio fluctuates over time, at points being 20/80 and can reverse to 80/20.

Why? Because behavior of each ant depends on strength of pheromone path to food that is produced by other ants. In other words, ants, to some extent, copy behavior of other ants. And this copying is enough to produce a large difference in ratio even in cases that are objectively absolutely equal.

So is it hard to conceive that humans also copy behavior of other fellow humans (actually, the above example is from Paul Ormerod's book Butterfly Economics), and that women might prefer a job where already are other women? Or where isn't an overwhelming majority of different people (i.e. men)?

The influence on individual decision can be very subtle, but yet can, statistically, lead to large differences in outcome.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#348

I’m a CS graduate and female founder. I disagree with many parts of this essay, but I actually agree with this part: “The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science“ I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisti…

> I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisticated social lives I think you are on to something. This is really the critical age when the decision happens. Everything else is the just the result of this. My own theory, is that CS (programming) is perceived as having low social status. Women are socially smarter, so they are aware of that. Men are clueless, so they are more likely to choose programming and lat…

>Women are socially smarter

What does this mean? Do women talk more? Yes. Is it substantive? Women are more willing to talk about their feelings but they also can be quite indirect compared to a man.

Women also have a reputation of being more adversarial and catty: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/opinion/sunday/why-women-...

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#349
I find the notion that this topic is NOT being discussed and being suppressed somewhat hilarious. Find me a single women in STEM who has not read or heard extensively about the idea that men are biologically predisposed to be better than women at 'abstract reasoning' etc. Historically, the notion that women might be just as capable at men at technical disciplines is what's NEW! I personally know of at least a dozen gifted young women scientists at the very best institutions in the world quitting the field because of advisors and others explicitly belittling them based on their gender. While these are anecdotes, they're representative for the question of who becomes faculty in STEM since that's my world: These were people who were identified from a young age as being likely to be future faculty in the sciences, performed off-the-charts well on every metric you can think of, publishing papers in journals in undergrad, and you know what? They heard this discussion ad nauseam, and in combination with the random sexism thrown their way, decided to bail (as frankly I would have in their shoes).

A related read that I found quite illuminating: http://www.minnesotalawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05...

(I run in fairly left-leaning liberal circles and you know what I hear about? NOT actually being PC (whatever that is -- define it, I dare you) but people complaining about something being PC. This has been going on since the year 2000 so much that I'm pretty sure jokes about something being PC are PC, while actually being PC is not PC..)

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism* is rampant. It is not merely present in threads where the link is about gender studies. You cannot "block it out" like you would any other topic. It is not a "topic of discussion" but an issue lurking behind other topics. *Sexism has can take many shapes others than direct attacks on women. Edit: Interesting how this went from +5 to -5 in minutes. Very controversial topic, eh?

I guess this doesn't answer my question. What's the ask here? OP suggested this discussion was "incredibly distressing," I'm unclear if anybody is entertaining the notion that a debate among dozens cannot happen because one person wanders in who's distressed by it, or what?

> I'm unclear if anybody is entertaining the notion that a debate among dozens cannot happen because one person wanders in who's distressed by it, or what?

The problem is not with having a debate; the problem is the sheer level of hostility present in this thread.

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