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Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

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241–250 of 536 posts

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#241
post #95

I don't get it. Why is equality of outcome not a desirable goal, especially in science and technology? These authors only try to disprove theories which potentially explain the inequality and then conclude that there is no injustice. This is logically flawed in my opinion. In order to justify the inequality they would need to come up with a plausible theory why the inequality is inevitable and then support it with so…

Would equality of outcome in the NBA be a desirable goal?

Why do we see so few East Asian, Hispanic, and Jewish NBA players? What policy would you create to correct this "injustice?"

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#242

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

>Whatever is holding women's participation in our field at or below twenty percent is artificial, and a travesty. CS is often toxic in my opinion. I can recall one instance were a lecturer harped on about why "men are better than women" . Wish i spoke up, but the guy ruled the place.

How many instances can you recall where that didn't happen?

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#243
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garbage disposal is not what people usually call a cognitively demanding field. The gender imbalance is still worse than CS. What those two have in common are shitty working conditions. Yes, coding is done sitting in climate controlled offices. But it is mostly shit: shit doc, shit managers, shit clients, shit hours, shit tools. Only dumbfucks who don't mind shit conditions for more money would do it. I'm sure if you…

Assuming you’re right about programming being so horrible, how is programming any worse than other clerical jobs?

More responsibility, i.e. it's easier to monumentally screw up and get rightfully blamed for it.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#244
I’m a CS graduate and female founder. I disagree with many parts of this essay, but I actually agree with this part: “The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science“

I believe that, at age 18, women have more sophisticated social lives and care more than boys do about relationships with people. But I think the perception that CS is less beneficial towards people or that technologist don’t work with people as often as other professionals is false. My job as a PM at Google was incredibly social, and I felt had a huge impact on “living things”, much more so than my female friend’s role as a psychology researcher or operations associate at an insurance company. There’s a belief in society that all CS grads do is sit in caves alone and make video games, whereas the truth is that they have beautiful offices, close-knit teams, a lifestyle with time for friends, a lot of influence, and a huge impact on real people’s lives through the software they create.

Now, a related problem is that CS actually is less social for woman than in it is for men. I had very few friends in my advanced classes, whereas the dudes took those classes together in packs. I benefited a huge amount from women in CS community at my university because I felt like I knew more people in my classes, could sit, chat, and work with them. IMO, all of the dollars going towards women in STEM that this author criticized are and should continue to target these two problems: that CS is perceived as less to do with “living things” and that it actually is less social for girls because there isn’t a strong community.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and after all those words about how even in advanced gender equality countries differences persist they offer the following qualitative reason for it: > The sex difference in interest in people extends to a more general interest in living things, which would explain why women who are interested in science are much more likely to pursue a career in biology or veterinary medicine than computer science. Right, so…

Not to mention that there's nothing touchy-feely about biochem, which is chem except you take orgo almost immediately. But the prefix "bio" in it allows them to dismiss it.

[deleted]

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#246
post #67
post #26

This reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier today. It's well known that men generally are stagnating economically, while women are catching up. In many metro areas, single women out earn single men. And so I came across this paper[0], which had some interesting research about that. And what struck me was this: there's an explicit assumption that men have worse socio-emotional skills than women, and that…

There's a war on right now, and it's increasingly vicious. Competitive victimhood is how you spot it - a relishing of both a sense of being aggrieved, and rejoicing in public humiliation and punishment of the perceived oppressor. I stay well away from it too. In fact I fear simply writing this comment. On Twitter, I've taken to unfollowing people who repeatedly retweet threads that have turned into piling-on contests…

Check out Nietzsche's concept of slave morality...the way I see it now is that the various slave moralities are battling it out to see which one will be the dominant one...from that perspective it becomes kind of interesting and entertaining so watch the "Oppression Olympics"...who will win the Gold? Will it be women, or perhaps Black women, or maybe LGBTQLMNOP Iranians...who will win? Stay tuned...sponsored by GirlDevelopIt

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#247
post #192

Hi everyone. I'm a woman with a math degree who just completed a computer programming certificate. I've wanted to study math my whole life, and I wasn't exposed to programming as a field of study until college. I just wanted to state that, for the record, having these sorts of discussions on hacker news is extremely distressing to me. I've worked hard to get the accreditations that I have, and I usually enjoy the thi…

I think a lot of people here don't really think about the effects their words have on other people, no matter the topic. I have been guilty of that too, both in online comments and in real life. "Guilty" is maybe even the wrong word, it can be very useful! I've asked Timothy Gowers once at a conference if he has ever written a program, and he said no! So you know more than he does when it comes to computer programming, just take that as a starting point and not the comments here :)

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#248

It’s important to investigate this topic from various perspectives, and the text contains a couple of important points (which of course are not new to anyone who’s been following this debate). However, right at the beginning, this is really a bad argument: “There is particular concern about the lack of women in prestigious STEM fields, such as Ph.D.-level faculty positions, but surprisingly there is no concern about…

Can someone with vouching powers vouch for SidiousL? He appears to have been shadowbanned for no discernible reason.

The discernible reason was given by dang: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14882450

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#249
post #192

Hi everyone. I'm a woman with a math degree who just completed a computer programming certificate. I've wanted to study math my whole life, and I wasn't exposed to programming as a field of study until college. I just wanted to state that, for the record, having these sorts of discussions on hacker news is extremely distressing to me. I've worked hard to get the accreditations that I have, and I usually enjoy the thi…

I'm unclear if you're asking the community not to have a discussion because you don't want to read it? There's a way to hide posts you don't want to read, I do it all the time with bitcoin articles.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#250
post #164

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

I was with you until you wrote: > But that has nothing to do with why Google has so few women engineers. Uh. What? As far as I can tell, it has _everything_ to do with that. These two things are so closely related i cannot fathom how you can make such a statement... Also... You make the same point twice. To paraphrase you: a) "academic CS is less intellectually rigorous and less hard to succeed in than chem/etc -- bu…

It seems you're searching the ground for the cause of the snow.

The gender imbalance is systemic, and not at all that hard to explain. In the early 90s, as home PCs were becoming ubiquitous, they were in part marketed in the same vein as any other masculine hobby -- auto repair, diy tinkering, etc. The "titans" of early tech companies were men -- not because women weren't interested or weren't smart enough -- but because socially, the gender stereotypes were such that women need not concern themselves (i.e. "Women need not apply").

Ultimately, the same systemic sexism that refused women the right to vote until they pushed hard enough, or refused women equal pay, is the same systemic sexism that keeps women away from CS.

Someone else commented that perhaps it takes a certain "grit" (paraphrased) to maintain interest in CS. I think they're so wrong they're right: It takes a certain "grit" to continue in such a "programmer-bro" culture, where there are few female role models.

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