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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#561

Post by g051051 »

atoko wrote: post #557
g051051 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'. That is exactly what the post I was responding to said, and I've quoted it several times. Here it is a gain, since you keep glossing over it: > You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! > "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a sen…

For what it’s worth I agree with the person you’re replying to. The OP is saying: given two senior applicants with the same coding skill level, the one most suited to the job is the person who can communicate to juniors and delegate effectively. I’m surprised you mentor, given all the hubris you have displyed on this thread.

> The OP is saying: given two senior applicants with the same coding skill level, the one most suited to the job is the person who can communicate to juniors and delegate effectively.

If that's what he was saying, I'd be much more in agreement. Instead he said, effectively, that senior devs shouldn't be coding because they can't do it any better than junior devs.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#562

Post by redblacktree »

steveeq1 wrote: post #556
jmvoodoo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

> Also, half of the Jrs we hire are women. We could never do that if we only hired experienced talent. Not enough women even apply for those roles. You're giving preferential treatment to your recruits on the basis of their gender?

I'm not the person you're replying to, but I took it to mean that they end up hiring about half women for those roles, not that the explicitly seek them out.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#563

Post by hinkley »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #58
tensor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely a skill difference between senior and junior. The problem is that junior developers today somehow think they deserve mid or senior level salaries despite not having the skills. Developers are being told not only that higher level skills like algorithms and big-oh don't matter, but that they are such special people that they can even do jobs completely outside of their specialty like design, manage…

"The problem is that junior developers today somehow think they deserve mid or senior level salaries despite not having the skills." If other companies are willing to pay those salaries, why would you say they don't deserve them?

Business is rife with people getting things they don’t deserve.

Why would you equate availability with appropriateness?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#564

Post by logfromblammo »

hinkley wrote: post #550
megaman22 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who graduates from a reputable school with a Comp. Sci. or InfoSys type of major is also fully capable of entry-level employment. No, they're really not, for at least a year. It takes at least that long for most new graduates to get over the hump and learn enough of the practical skills and industry practices that their university left them woefully ignorant of, so that they can start being marginally useful…

I worked with and later became a “student programmer” when I was in college. I had classes with some of these guys and I would ask them how long the homework took. “2 hours”? That’s crazy. It took me 10 and I knew people who were 15 hours in and not done yet. Then I got on a new project as a dev. Within months I was down to 3-4 hours for similar assignments. My last class at school was the first time we had a shortag…

Yeah, there was a great incentive to get done with the homework fast, because then you could get back to writing scripted mob behaviors and quest scripts for your MUD.

Finish with the boring programming, and you get to do fun programming.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#565

Post by delecti »

aperrien wrote: post #558
delecti wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story reminds me of the joke/anecdote of the way to cheat on tests. You religiously look over your notes and the textbook in the weeks leading up to the test, so that when you take the test it's like you have a comprehensive cheat sheet with you, but in your head . If the hiring process wasn't able to distinguish between you or who they thought they were looking for, then it wasn't your responsibility to inform…

I may be dense here, but what's the difference between a cheat sheet in your head and actually knowing the topic?

That's the point of joke/anecdote. By studying you know the material and don't have to cheat, but the "tip" is voiced by someone more accustomed to cheating than studying, and so it's framed as a dishonest strategy.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#566

Post by [deleted] »

logfromblammo wrote: post #522
Caveman_Coder wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "well, but what would we need to fight for as a union?" Improved compensation, benefits, bonuses, stock options, paid conferences, training, etc...

Bottom-up control of the development process. Our own apprenticeship pipeline. Our own certifications. Genuine influence over interviewing and hiring practices. Minimum contract terms. Our own lobbyists. Promoting business for members outside of Silicon Valley. Our own jobs board. A general strike fund. Our own retirement planning and pensions system. A backup health insurance option. The lobbyists can start by bring…

[deleted]

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#567

Post by ethbro »

vinceguidry wrote: post #400
jmvoodoo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

I'll see your management issue and raise you a leadership one. At my last job, a $40MM cosmetics and skincare company, the CEO had a great deal of trouble figuring out how to get his e-commerce department properly managed. I was willing to step up, and for a brief time they allowed me to bring in candidates for a position that would report to me, but I didn't have enough political cover over me so that fizzled out. I…

I never thought about it, but "IT / development is crap in legacy industries" follows as a tautology from your perspective.

If the only way to effectively perform the job (in the broader, department sense) is with political cover.

And if political cover is only apportioned in a zero-sum game of high level positions.

And if there are legacy industries in which those positions are, and have been for decades, apportioned to predefined departments (notably standardized before the information revolution).

Then those legacy industries are going to have insufficient political cover over IT/development. And therefore terrible performance.

My current employer recently had a security epiphany, and they definitely empowered a reorganized security department to make necessary changes. But I'm sure there were many points where "VP of X" could have squashed a necessary security change, had security not been of equal seniority.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#568

Post by bpicolo »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #262
skjerns wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is 50k really such a bad starting salary or is there such a big difference between US and EU?

There are 2 differences: first, US devs are paid substantially more. Second, their stated salaries is closer to what their employer spends than our salaries. Our employers pay various taxes before giving us our stated salary, they have private insurances. This is a gross oversimplification, but that's the idea. Third, the cost of living is often higher in the US. To really compare salaries, you need to count what the…

In white collar jobs like software people don't usually have private health insurance (in the US). Employers cover that cost on top of your salary - 90%-100% of cost is typical in the industry, though it depends a biton whether it's just for you / your family.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#569

Post by madamelic »

logfromblammo wrote: post #522
Caveman_Coder wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "well, but what would we need to fight for as a union?" Improved compensation, benefits, bonuses, stock options, paid conferences, training, etc...

Bottom-up control of the development process. Our own apprenticeship pipeline. Our own certifications. Genuine influence over interviewing and hiring practices. Minimum contract terms. Our own lobbyists. Promoting business for members outside of Silicon Valley. Our own jobs board. A general strike fund. Our own retirement planning and pensions system. A backup health insurance option. The lobbyists can start by bring…

God no.

I don't want to be mandated to strike and pout over not getting enough money. As long as I am treated fairly (I am) and paid fairly (I am), I am not paying any percentage to some company to tell me to screw over my employer.

If some company wants to unionize, have fun but I am not joining that party.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#570

Post by alien_at_work »

rplnt wrote: post #259
opportune wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this too. There are only a few rational explanations 1. Senior devs aren't paid enough for the value they bring to the company (or conversely, junior devs are paid too much for that value) 2. Investing in junior devs gives a good enough ROI that it's worth overpaying them for a few years. That is, after e.g. three years, enough junior devs have stuck around that they've accumulated enough org-specific kn…

I think it's 2. I don't see why senior dev salaries should go any higher. At that point it would be easier to open office overseas even for smaller shops.

>I don't see why senior dev salaries should go any higher

Because they're vastly underpaid compared to the value they produce.

>At that point it would be easier to open office overseas even for smaller shops.

Which means you're getting junior devs, at best. The entire concept of outsourcing hangs on the idea that the people being outsourced to will behave exactly the opposite of those doing the outsourcing, i.e. not really caring about money. Well they do care: when they get senior they leave and go somewhere they can earn western money.

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