Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Who Killed the Junior Developer?

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

501–510 of 803 posts

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#501

Post by Caveman_Coder »

RangerScience wrote: post #189

People talk about a "developer's union" ever so often, and one of the most commonly brought up counter-points is "well, but what would we need to fight for as a union?" (not that I agree there isn't anything (else) to fight for, but:) it occurs to me that this is an excellent possibility. Devs change jobs. This is good, but (as pointed out) means you maybe don't want to train people up; it's the next company that ben…

> "well, but what would we need to fight for as a union?"

Improved compensation, benefits, bonuses, stock options, paid conferences, training, etc...

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#502

Post by WalterSear »

runedog wrote: post #441
vinceguidry wrote: post #364

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

What do you suggest for those of us who believe we would be terrible at management? Add to that, I also think I would be miserable doing it.

That the system is stacked against us.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#503

Post by wccrawford »

Beltiras wrote: post #382

I trained a junior dev so well I was laid off because he was cheaper than me. One of the proudest moments of my professional life to be honest.

I've got a junior dev under me that has gotten so good that that the thought of that scenario has occurred to me.

I decided to come to terms with it by accepting that if that happened, it'd be the push I needed to spread my wings a bit.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#504

Post by commandlinefan »

vinceguidry wrote: post #364

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

> always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field

Back in the 90's, when I wanted to move up to working with C++ (the hip, new, "in" thing at the time), I bought a book about C++, read through it, worked the examples, and then started interviewing. The interviewers asked all sorts of arcane questions that I hadn't come across in my few months of study, so I was tanking the interviews. The trick I figured out back then, though, was that the interviewers all tended to ask the same sorts of questions - so after getting my rejection, I'd go look up what the answers to all their questions were so that the next time I was asked the same question, I'd know the answer. I did eventually get a job doing C++ (and did well at it), but... yeah, looking back it was maybe a little bit dishonest.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#505

Post by thesimon »

vinceguidry wrote: post #488
megaman22 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who graduates from a reputable school with a Comp. Sci. or InfoSys type of major is also fully capable of entry-level employment. No, they're really not, for at least a year. It takes at least that long for most new graduates to get over the hump and learn enough of the practical skills and industry practices that their university left them woefully ignorant of, so that they can start being marginally useful…

Code schools try to solve this problem. But they need to become an actual structural part of the industry before companies can really start to rely on them.

They seem to be on the other side of the extreme though.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#506

Post by beefhash »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #108

Are companies hiring differently, or are we just defining the terms differently? "Junior developer" used to refer to someone who can program but who doesn't have a lot of practical experience. Today "junior developer" refers to someone who can't program but who has a CS degree or went to a bootcamp, and there are more of those today as a proportion of the talent pool than there have ever been. I think this failure of…

As far as I know, academic education is not meant to deliver practical skills, but rather theory and deeper understanding. CS degree is not a programming degree but the equivalent of theoretical physics.

It's become an unfortunate trend that the academy has somehow become stuck with the role of doing vocational education, rather than research and theory.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#507

Post by Beltiras »

wccrawford wrote: post #503
Beltiras wrote: post #382

I trained a junior dev so well I was laid off because he was cheaper than me. One of the proudest moments of my professional life to be honest.

I've got a junior dev under me that has gotten so good that that the thought of that scenario has occurred to me. I decided to come to terms with it by accepting that if that happened, it'd be the push I needed to spread my wings a bit.

Isn't this the goal of every programmer? Programming their way out of a job?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#508

Post by Caveman_Coder »

Personal story time...

I was a journeyman electrician for nearly a decade before obtaining my CS degree. The company that hired me, in order to pay me what I was making as a topped-out journeyman, brought me in as a Senior Developer (and its corresponding pay "bucket"). This was my first job actually developing software and I was, in title, a "Senior Developer," even though I knew next to nothing other than what was covered in my college curriculum.

TLDR: Titles don't mean much...

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#509

Post by Marazan »

padobson wrote: post #425
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't see anything said that's incompatible with the 'Den mother' stigma. If its about pay and promotion, not about being friendly with Engineers, then you want to avoid the role that won't be respected. You can't imagine all the ways management can dismiss women's actions - "she's a great connector in that department. Let's leave her there, that's working great." or "sure she's got all the guys eating out of her han…

If its about pay and promotion Pay and promotion is about making yourself valuable. If you mentor engineers and gain a reputation for doing so, you're effectively shaping the culture of the organization, not to mention gives you a ton of leverage with the productive employees you taught to be productive. It makes you far less disposable. When mixed with even amateur negotiating skills, that leads to promotion and bet…

If you're mentoring jr devs ten it's going to be years before they rise up high enough to have any influence on you getting promotion.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#510

Post by logfromblammo »

lovich wrote: post #114
tensor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most developers doing the one year stint thing don't care about anything other than salary. No matter what you do for them they will jump after a year. Seeing that pattern on a resume a big warning sign. These people are simply mercenary and deserve to be treated as such.

Most companies seem to think that a good years raise is just a cost of living increase. If one side acted better I could see getting all high and mighty about it, but that's not the case. When companies decided to cut all loyalty to employees they shouldn't be surprised when the feeling is reciprocated

This. Loyalty is a two-way street. Seeing a series of one-year terms on a resume means that the candidate is probably mercenary now, but it also means that none of those previous companies invested anything into retention or morale. They could probably be converted back to a company stalwart if only someone would treat them right.

On my resume, the "at-will" terminations outnumber the number of times I jumped ship for a better situation, 5 to 1. This last year's raise was just a cost of living increase, and they crappified the health benefits, so I may have to even those numbers up a bit soon. The only thing stopping me is the horrid, nauseating, bile-raising gauntlet of developer interviews.

Post reply on HN