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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#381

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring.

This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter.

Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or knowledge. Identifying the person who is passionate about learning, has dedication to the craft and pride in their work, and has a natural talent for software is hard. Figure it out though and you have a competitive advantage for life as a manager.

Also, half of the Jrs we hire are women. We could never do that if we only hired experienced talent. Not enough women even apply for those roles.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

Even if you're a savvy manager who is totally on board with this idea, you have to work within the rules HR gives you. There are lots of companies that cap promotion raises at 10% and need VP level sign off above that. How many companies allow a manager to make a habit out of 50% raises - not just for the once a generation talent who made the company 10x their salary this year, but for "pretty good" employees who are progressing as expected?

For whatever reason, letting them walk and paying that same 1.5x salary to a new mid-level hire is easier for everyone to swallow.

And from the employee's perspective, saying "yes" to a recruiter who expects to pay market rate sounds like a lot less hassle and stress than preparing a presentation on why your current company should change or make an exception to its HR polices for you.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#384

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

I love that you pointed out the need for political strength within organizations. I agree, and I think it directly conflicts with this line from the post: Yeah, I’m gonna bring gender into it, because I’m a woman and when women take on roles like this they often get pigeonholed into “den mother” stereotypes. That means less prestige and less prestige usually means less pay. Having the admiration and respect of the ne…

Wait until you get old (past 35), I'm a woman (ex web deck "ninja/rockstar/etc") and I can safely say the ageist comments are far worse.

No one believes you can keep up the development sprints, or new technologies.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#385
First of all, absolutely no employer (at least the sane ones) cares if you are junior/senior/old/ninja or superman. The goal is, to hire people that generate a cash turnover. If you cannot deliver a value that the company can capture as a profit - you are denied. It is that simple.

Maybe these "Junior" people just don't know enough to be productive? How can I hire someone who will waste my time on explaining something that is so basic, one can learn by being involved in open source?

And here is the conclusion. Stuck in Junior limbo (what ever that means)? Commit to some open source project, show me value you can create. I guarantee you, you'll be hired.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that sucks time to change the company...

I've personally never heard of any company doubling a developer's salary like that. Have you?

It's certainly rare, but my employer is aggressive about keeping compensation appropriate. Top performing new hires can see their comp double in 2-3 years.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#387

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

Ok, the first part of your comment makes no sense to me. How do you lie your way into a certification? An interview I can understand, but don't you have to take a test to get a cert? From the second paragraph down, you're absolutely right for non-software companies. They still don't have an understanding of how to build software development into their business model. They don't realize that the low barrier entry to b…

I should have said cheated, he got a copy of the first part of the test and memorized it. The second part of it which requires actual coding he barely passed.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#388

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!

For at least 2 companies I've worked at, this is false. Junior devs cannot complete their work at all without help.

This may be the real problem: there is no way to learn the skills to do the job without actually getting a job first and learning the skills as you go.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#389
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunning-Kruger called, they want their overblown ego steamroller back.

People get better with practice. So, yes senior developers tend to be significantly faster coders. It's not that they do everything faster, but by getting better at the hard parts they finish complex tasks vastly more quickly. PS: Most people have never worked closely with someone with 25+ years of experience, but the difference is staggering.

Well, I am someone with 25 years of experience, does that count as "worked closely with"?

Good junior devs are... well, by definition, good. They're just younger, and less experienced - but every bit as smart as you are, and pretty skilled in the art of coding. If anything, they have more time than I do and are a lot more eager to "prove themselves".

I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster"...

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#390
1 or 2 "senior-level" folks (imho, people with at least a decade of experience within a multitude of environments) are going to outperform a half-dozen junior engineers.

When you're building a monolith Rails application, anything goes. But now that the industry is trending towards (for better or worse) service oriented architecture, stateless cloud deployments, walled gardens tossing data back and forth over RPC, data science teams, etc... you need people who have been to war a dozen times and have already made all the mistakes. That is what you get with a senior engineer: someone who knows what NOT to do.

I have spent most of the last 2-3 years of my career playing bad cop and telling people no. Shutting down wild and exciting ideas. Stopping over-engineering in its tracks. Preventing an investment in a bad technology. Preventing fragmented infrastructure with data in a handful of different databases.

I think that is why the junior engineer has disappeared. Most of us were never trained/educated/encouraged to be good teachers and we spend most of our time putting out fires and trying to keep our hands on the pulse of technology while simultaneously hanging on for dear life within our organizations. Pivots, layoffs, blockchains, shiny new business objectives are all mortars flying at the eng team left and right.

I wish I had junior engineers to mentor and teach and foster into folks who have good critical thinking skills and I can trust 100% to make the right decisions – but there is a tremendous cost involved to the business that I think most are unable to afford. Some of my most rewarding career experiences involved working side-by-side with folks fresh out of a bootcamp or university who were wide-eyed and bushy tailed. It was a lot of fun watching them run off and do a bunch of work then having a discussion on the choices and using each moment as a stepping stone towards a bigger understanding of all the moving parts in modern infrastructure.

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