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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#321

Post by marcosdumay »

a_t48 wrote: post #82
AFNobody wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market rate compensation, non-toxic culture, and realistic expectations for work output solves 90% of the reasons reasonable people leave jobs. People claim all sorts of reasons for leaving jobs but its always one of those three or uncertainty about company longevity. (i.e. acquisition/financial difficulties for the company) The other 10% is people who are naive or have a family/relocation related issue that you can…

Comeon now, there are more reasons than that for people to leave, like a new exciting opportunity appearing.

> a new exciting opportunity

You mean a salary or title increase? Yeah, that's in the GP's comment.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#322

Post by analogic »

hanniabu wrote: post #175
accatyyc wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone else who have hired developers I agree with the parent post here. Examples include: - totally oblivious to standard library for the language/frameworks, reimplementing the most basic things (poorly) - even after a 3 year CS education, lacks basic understanding of object-oriented programming/class hierarchies - has trouble implementing even simple if/else-conditions without help I’m talking really basic stu…

The if/else part is really astonishing. The other ones I can understand in SOME way but the if/else is logic that's used in every day life. If I do this then that will happen, otherwise this other thing may happen. Very surprising.

"The other ones I can understand in SOME way"

Not me, "OOP class hierarchys" still incomprehensible gibberish here.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#323

Post by darkerside »

g051051 wrote: post #318
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

> I'm about as "senior" as it gets

Senior developers make sure to question their assumptions on a regular basis, FYI

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#324

Post by marcosdumay »

opportune wrote: post #247
derrekl wrote: post #122

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

I've noticed this too. There are only a few rational explanations 1. Senior devs aren't paid enough for the value they bring to the company (or conversely, junior devs are paid too much for that value) 2. Investing in junior devs gives a good enough ROI that it's worth overpaying them for a few years. That is, after e.g. three years, enough junior devs have stuck around that they've accumulated enough org-specific kn…

I would bet heavily on 5. Not exactly on the hiring being irrational, but on companies doing crazy things that destroy the productivity of their senior people.

Just look at how many people are complaining here about open plan offices, agile time slots, heavyweight meetings, and inability to do what they do best.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#325

Post by stctgion »

watwut wrote: post #253
lkrubner wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly agree. I would like to spend more time teaching junior developers what I know. But anything that slows down a small, agile startup can mean the death of the startup, so this tends to undercut my ability to do any kind of mentoring. Excerpt from a real life situation I was in: =========================== June of 2015: Sital was a beginner. In general, there is nothing wrong with being a beginner. All of us ar…

> Could we succeed when we had a beginner in a critical role? This is core issue. This has nothing to do with startup team vs team in corporation. Neither can have beginner in a critical difficult role. Both can make use of junior, assuming they dont put him to critical role.

Where is best to place a beginner? Too easy and they get bored. Too hard and they get demoralised when somebody else has to step in. Give them side projects and the work load for the team goes up with code review etc for unnecessary work.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#326

Post by moreless »

g051051 wrote: post #318
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

True. But the team as a whole would probably still achieve much more if you were mostly guiding other (less experienced) devs.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#327

Post by nkrisc »

virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

As a non-developer who works directly with devs, I've always thought this:

I've heard that being a dev is 90% thinking about code and 10% writing it.

In my experience you hire senior devs to do the thinking part and junior devs to do the writing part while learning how to do the thinking part.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#328

Post by musage »

teddythetwig wrote: post #320
hetspookjee wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish. Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no comp…

Oh believe me... Coming from the US, the summer between my first and second year, I was compensated 5k for three months of work. When I first heard what was standard in NL I was shocked. Then again, I was also paying 50k per semester for school, soooo yeah, take your pick haha. I wouldn't say slavery, more like indentured servitude. Anyways, I make it my personal goal to give our interns as much of mine and our senio…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude#Legal_sta...

also:

> Until the late 18th century, indentured servitude was very common in British North America. It was often a way for poor Europeans to immigrate to the American colonies: they signed an indenture in return for a costly passage. After their indenture expired, the immigrants were free to work for themselves or another employer.

Internships would be more akin to working for those companies in Europe, with the prospect of maybe getting a costly passage to greener pastures so to speak, and maybe not.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#329

Post by dalbasal »

virgilp wrote: post #293
dalbasal wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I've seen with mentoring, in practice, is the 1 in 3 juniors that takes up all the time. Maybe the particular job doesn't suit them. Maybe they shouldn't be a dev. Maybe it's personality. Some managers, mentors or such seem to deal with this well. But, in the cases that I've seen having an employee that is not producing value is stressful and time consuming. Largely, it's driven by empathy. You don't want…

> You hire for needs in the next 12 months. That's like, your opinion, man. Why can't you hire long-term? If all you plan for is short-term, it will only work short-term, and it should be no surprise if on the longer term you fail or you find yourself in a world of pain. > I see this as a byproduct of product development time. MVP and its associated stuff... It's all about short horizons, I think you severely misunde…

..if all you plan for is short-term, it will only work short-term..

My point exactly, only in reverse. In industries (eg, merchant banking, corporate law, industrial engineering) where the plans are longer term, the thinking is longer term. Here you see highly involved onboarding programs with mentorship, in depth training and such.

Uber, FB, snapchat, netflix or whatnot never had plans that really looked past 2-3 years into the future. Ambitions, possibly. That's different to plans. These are on the young/ADD end of the spectrum, but they have cultural influence industry-wide.

I disagree about MVP. First, I don't think short horizon is bad, it's choice with advantages and disadvantages. Second, I do think MVP is part of a wider, shorter horizon planning mentality. That has certainly been my experience. The idea (IMO) is that instead of planning, you evolve. Evolution and planning are at odds with eachother, to an extent. You can make decisions early, and you get a longer term plan to work with. You can make decisions just-in-time (eg after launching an MVP), this gets you more informed decisions. That's not necessarily related to HR. You're hiring and onboarding could be unrelated to your product and engineering plans (or lack thereof). But (again, in practice), I think that mentality is influenced by these things.

^That's like, your opinion, man. ...always ;)

"I've yet to see that work" ... Uber. Netflix' streaming service.... for large, famous examples. Call those lotteries if you want. They're definitely risky. You may not like high risk strategies but they are a big part of the software industry, especially on the culturally influential wing.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#330

Post by mooreds »

CydeWeys wrote: post #61
mooreds wrote: post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

I did say "they still need raises" :) But I get what you are saying.

As a junior dev, I have received at least one double digit percentage raise. This was a while ago, and perhaps I worked for an enlightened boss, or maybe I was just really really undermarket. But it can and should happen.

The long term approach would be to give the juniors raises and challenge them and keep them within the org. Unfortunately the short term perspective doesn't value that and so jumping ship is the best way to get more money, causing the org to lose all the training and the institutional memory.

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