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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#311

Post by lmilcin »

The demand for developers is such that no company can ignore hiring and training junior developers.

IMO companies have relabeled them to developer and even to senior developers, presumably to make hires feel better that they joined exclusive group of people.

This may also be a result of some tension in HR departments where they are expected to provide some number of headcounts on different levels but they can't. So there may be natural inclination to prop up the hires to meet plans.

The body leasing companies are also inclined to prop up their candidates to offer them for higher rates.

Some regions of the world (my experience is with India) don't seem to have any junior developers. As soon as they are done with their training they have gained enough experience to be marketed as developers.

I work for one of very large companies in financial sector and people who barely can write a loop in Java are still named senior developers.

All this depreciates value of the official recognition of seniority and forces people to discover this on their own.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#312

Post by icantdrive55 »

mistermann wrote: post #130
twblalock wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The short-termism that's infested our culture--it seems like all Western culture--is truly sickening. It feels like "Well, I got mine, screw the next generation." This goes way beyond just junior developers. It's a bit of a leap to conclude that on the basis that you weren't asked by management to mentor junior devs. In fact, it's possible management assumed you would do mentoring and didn't need to be told.

Do you read the newspaper? Watch TV? Have you genuinely not noticed an increase in short term thinking and f*ck you, got mine mentality in North America? If not, over what time span are you considering?

The "f*ck you, got mine" was probally always there.

It seems like it's just getting worse though.

Morality/ethics used to be more noticed, and rewarded. I don't know who to blame. I sometimes think it's the lack of listening to a sermon on Sundays?

I do know this, I can usually spot the selfish bastards around us, and try to steer clear from them. If I can financially harm them, I try. If they happen to be family, they are emotionally cut off.

I have a very financially successful sister.

She is now over fifty, and misserable. She lived the American dream, but did it ugly, and now just has a 25 year old husband that doesn't care about her. Yes--she got a pre-nup.

She still emails me with some new spiritual thing she discovered. It's always the same email. Why don't my brothers, and mother call me? My kids only call when they need money. What did I do?

She knows what she did early on. It's no mystery. At one time she had it all. Her good looks got her so much. The looks are fading, along with that power. I knew in my twenties she would have a wake up call later in life, but I didn't know she would burn down so many bridges clawing her way up. And no--if she was a man, she wouldn't have it easier.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#313

Post by sundvor »

zemanel wrote: post #302
thepratt wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?

High probability of “not productive effort”, i’m fighting my own rather serious battle with management at the moment. On further note, before i started the contract i was asked to bring my own laptop as work computer, i didn’t necessarily agree (for all the obvious reasons as security and business/personal risk) but he was being pushy about i said i could take my laptop (at least to get started) and i was expecting t…

That sucks. Posting on Glassdoor could help, unless you risk your position before you have a new one with too much identifiable information. Definitely post after.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#314

Post by hetspookjee »

teddythetwig wrote: post #288
zemanel wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them…

Just want to point out that often the interns will receive additional compensation from their programs. When we hire interns from Erasmus+, they are given 500 euro from us, as well as 500 euro from their program. Additionally, Erasmus students are eligible for student housing from UvA or the VU. Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government fo…

I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish.

Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no compensation is more likely to be the case. You will get a maximum loan of 1100 euros a month from the government, so a lot of students have to take on a second job if they don't get any compensation at all at their internship.

National institute of neuroscience provides no compensation whatsoever, and for applied mathematics students the average compensation is around 200 euros.

Obviously not wholly related to your comment but the internship situation in the Netherlands really grinds my gears.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#315

Post by marcosdumay »

zemanel wrote: post #302
thepratt wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?

High probability of “not productive effort”, i’m fighting my own rather serious battle with management at the moment. On further note, before i started the contract i was asked to bring my own laptop as work computer, i didn’t necessarily agree (for all the obvious reasons as security and business/personal risk) but he was being pushy about i said i could take my laptop (at least to get started) and i was expecting t…

> which they are in their full right to do

They seem to be scamming the shareholders diverting money from productive investment into their self worth. It's not your problem, but it's not in their full right to do either.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#316

Post by emodendroket »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #299
emodendroket wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. In particular, it's often your looser acquaintances who have something for you.

Indeed, one of my bigger customers now was in a junior role at a company I did some work for years ago. You never really know where opportunities might lie and it costs little to keep in touch.

I think people also get too shy about reaching out to people they haven't been in touch with. Most people aren't going to be annoyed if you say, "Hey, long time no see. How have you been? Wondering if you know anyone who's hiring" or whatever it is you're asking for.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#317

Post by mukundmr »

The investment an organization makes in helping junior developers get up to speed pays off in the longer run if the workplace isn't toxic. Ideas flow better when there is a difference in experience level in the team. Mentoring also helps experience people learn more as opposed to settling down in a comfort zone.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#318

Post by g051051 »

virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!

Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#319

Post by dep_b »

zemanel wrote: post #248
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them…

The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost.

"Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#320

Post by teddythetwig »

hetspookjee wrote: post #314
teddythetwig wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to point out that often the interns will receive additional compensation from their programs. When we hire interns from Erasmus+, they are given 500 euro from us, as well as 500 euro from their program. Additionally, Erasmus students are eligible for student housing from UvA or the VU. Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government fo…

I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish. Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no comp…

Oh believe me... Coming from the US, the summer between my first and second year, I was compensated 5k for three months of work. When I first heard what was standard in NL I was shocked. Then again, I was also paying 50k per semester for school, soooo yeah, take your pick haha. I wouldn't say slavery, more like indentured servitude. Anyways, I make it my personal goal to give our interns as much of mine and our senior devs' time as possible, as well as support after their internship is over.
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