The OP is missing a rather obvious point. A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Another point missing is that sometimes there are very hard problems (eg. self-driving cars, fusion power, DNA pattern matching) that need solving quickly and that's what some companies try to do, there are other type of companies that solve more mundane problems (hr software, customer relation management software, email tool) that have been solved over and over again. To bundle all companies into one category when it comes to training junior devs is a mistake, junior devs could be trained at companies working on easier problems much more cost effectively and efficiently.
Who Killed the Junior Developer?
161–170 of 803 posts
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#162I have seen the "we don't want to waste time teaching people. So, hire only senior developers" scenario play out at couple of my previous employers. And, it doesn't end well. Senior devs have expectations around salary, growth and work. Over time when the company starts running out of steam - funding, growth or even interesting work it gets difficult to keep the senior devs happy. Once that scenario plays out, compan…
>Senior devs have expectations around salary, growth and work.
A Junior Dev will have them, too, though. Not the ones fresh out of college, but maybe the ones that already worked for 6 months or so.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think someone necessarily has to live and breathe code to be good at their job. That kind of focus is hard to maintain forever. When I was new I was constantly reading programming books and now, like, I'm still interested, but other things are going on in my life that also need my attention, you know?
You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink. It's completely okay to "just" do your job professionally. However, skill development, transfer of skills to junior developers and mentoring is a different issue - if you want to learn from me, you have to want to learn; if you're just here for the paycheck, then I'm not going to go out of my way to educate you even if (which is the case for many junior…
Absolutely - trying to teach people who are not interested in learning requires a very special set of skills, motivation, and personality that few have IMO. It certainly demoralized me as my university teaching responsibilities gradually shifted from small graduate research seminars to overcrowded introductory undergrad surveys, and now in tech roles I make sure to push back whenever my job devolves too far into babysitting. Smart, motivated junior devs are a true pleasure to work with, but unfortunately are still the exception rather than the rule.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#164We kinda did. This is because we like to hire interns.
Usually intern in our area:
* studies programming at a university
* costs around a 1/2 of a junior
* is part-time with really erratic schedule
* work output still on on par with few juniors we hired
I suspect this is mostly because there isn't as much of a difference between what can one work in 8h compared to 4h (I spend 2h out of those on meetings an email anyway, so it can be productive to route most of these around your intern)
Second part is, we are well known as a good employer in the area, that has a tradition in accommodating for students erratic schedules, which means we get students who would get a full time non-junior position elsewhere, but they don't want to give up on school.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Market rate compensation, non-toxic culture, and realistic expectations for work output solves 90% of the reasons reasonable people leave jobs. People claim all sorts of reasons for leaving jobs but its always one of those three or uncertainty about company longevity. (i.e. acquisition/financial difficulties for the company) The other 10% is people who are naive or have a family/relocation related issue that you can…
When I first got into programming, as a high school intern in the early eighties, I was told a programmer stays at a job, on average for the years. I haven't heard this number change at all. While I'm sure there are many jobs where people stay along time, the average length of stay is still fairly short. Boredom and wanting to work on something new is probably the biggest driver
> When I first got into programming, as a high school intern in the early eighties, I was told a programmer stays at a job, on average for the years. I haven't heard this number change at all. While I'm sure there are many jobs where people stay along time, the average length of stay is still fairly short.
I've literally worked at _one_ place that scored well on those three items. Most places are racing to the bottom in one or two of those. Usually it is pay unless you are somewhere competitive like the Bay Area.
> Boredom and wanting to work on something new is probably the biggest driver
That is much like the "exciting new opportunity" story people tell about why they changed jobs. It is not _real_ in the literal sense.
If it was real, they would shop around internally to change projects and succeed. There would be no real need to change jobs.
Idk where you have worked but I've literally never worked on the same project for longer than 1-2 years. Even if I was at the same employer for 6+. If you have people with realistic expectations who aren't piling on technical debt, maintenance work _should_ be negligible even if you are lightly attached to old projects.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#166The OP is missing a rather obvious point. A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Another point missing is that sometimes there are very hard problems (eg. self-driving cars, fusion power, DNA pattern matching) that need solving quickly and that's what some companies try to do, there are…
I'd disagree with you in this part:
>Another point missing is that sometimes there are very hard problems (eg. self-driving cars, fusion power, DNA pattern matching) that need solving quickly
If you have let's say 5 senior devs and 1 junior. Then the problem still can get solved quickly while the junior will learn a lot. Obviously, hiring 1 senior and 5 juniors would be a mistake.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#167This reminds my of my job search 5 year ago after I graduated college. It took me 8 months to land my first job and I was living with my mother. I did work on some side projects to build my knowledge on some technologies. When my mom asked me what I was doing and I said I worked on project 'x' she would say "I think you should be sending out more job applications instead." Working on side projects is not an option fo…
Couldn't agree more, I feel that this is extremely under emphasized. Meetups and networking events are the best places to get your foot in the door imo. It's the easiest way to separate yourself from the troves of resumes a recruiter may be sifting through on a daily basis, bypass all the politics and nuances of looking perfect on paper, and in the very least be set up for an interview (where you can prove your skills through explanation and whiteboards).
I'm biased though because I got my first two jobs this way.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#168I think the "Junior" title is used entirely by companies to get a discount at salary negotiations these days. I work with a large mix of mid level, senior, and "Junior" developers by title. The practical difference in our technical skill levels is almost nonexistent. The proper progression should be: Intern -> Developer -> Senior/Lead, with Senior/Lead denoting that certain expectations are made of your organizationa…
There is absolutely a skill difference between senior and junior. The problem is that junior developers today somehow think they deserve mid or senior level salaries despite not having the skills. Developers are being told not only that higher level skills like algorithms and big-oh don't matter, but that they are such special people that they can even do jobs completely outside of their specialty like design, manage…
So if I work at company A as a junior and get paid the same salary as a senior at company B, why is it bad that my expectation is to keep getting paid at the level of A even if I want to switch jobs?
Or does your comment apply to fresh grads? Because then your comment would make more sense to me.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#169My two cents: simple supply and demand. The slow deflation of the startup bubble of the past five years or so has killed the junior developer. Once upon a time, there so much competition for engineering talent in the startup world that even developers with little to no experience and/or formal training were being handed lucrative jobs. Looking back we see clear signs of a seller's market in talent: companies went out…
As someone starting to teach myself how to code, I'd be interested to hear more about the basic coding tasks people are failing at.
As someone else who have hired developers I agree with the parent post here.
Examples include:
- totally oblivious to standard library for the language/frameworks, reimplementing the most basic things (poorly)
- even after a 3 year CS education, lacks basic understanding of object-oriented programming/class hierarchies
- has trouble implementing even simple if/else-conditions without help
I’m talking really basic stuff here. You’d be surprised. I assume that if you are self-taught, you have the interest and because of that already much more knowledge than many graduates.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#170Most junior level positions are being filled with the massive influx of new grads from really strong intern programs at most companies now. If you're in college now, make sure you get an internship at a company in your field. If it's too late for that, then you'll have to do a little extra work and probably work on a couple side projects and post them on GitHub. That first job will always be the hardest to get, so do…
/agree
I love hiring and mentoring junior developers, but the barrier to entry is quite high. Employers love junior developers with aptitude and enthusiasm.