Live data from Hacker News

Who Killed the Junior Developer?

medium.com

131–140 of 803 posts

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#131
My two cents: simple supply and demand. The slow deflation of the startup bubble of the past five years or so has killed the junior developer. Once upon a time, there so much competition for engineering talent in the startup world that even developers with little to no experience and/or formal training were being handed lucrative jobs.

Looking back we see clear signs of a seller's market in talent: companies went out of their way to hire anyone remotely competent. Once hired, devs could hopefully rely on their company's mentorship, training, and experience opportunities to raise themselves up, and companies could rely on the same for retention. Coding boot camps sprung up to give people just enough skills and credibility to get their foot in the door. Salaries were high.

That gold rush has since dried up. Early stage funding has plummeted. Fewer and fewer companies want to go public. Large companies like Google, Facebook, etc. now dominate their respective product categories. Why is it now difficult to find senior people? Because for someone with years of experience and/or formal training, these companies offer the holy trinity of excellent pay, top-tier perks, and opportunities for career growth.

My personal opinion is that many of these junior devs simply aren't very good. As someone who conducts interviews at one of those aforementioned big companies, I'm consistently disappointed by how poorly most candidates perform on basic interview questions. And I don't mean the kind that test book knowledge of some obscure algorithm, I'm talking basic coding tasks.

From where I stand it's a matter of an oversupply of inexperienced, under-qualified developers that are no longer being absorbed into startups desperate for warm bodies to do rudimentary coding tasks, coupled with a strong demand for senior folks from big companies with the coffers to pay them.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

If you're going to end up paying market rate anyway, why not just skip the training cost and hire them after someone else has put in the hard yards?

That's true. Presumably the junior developer is cheaper while they're junior, but if nobody's hiring them anymore then I guess they're not cheaper enough to compensate for needing to train them.

Maybe by creating a workplace where developers want to stay you could keep them around at slightly under market rate? Not everyone is looking to job hop every 6 months. But the amount below market rate that you seem to end up by staying in one job feels like it's unreasonably large.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#133
Just few days ago some company's "Senior" developer posting made it to top of HN feeds. I clicked on it out of curiosity and the requirement was "2 years of experience writing code".

Such posts warrant a WARNING otherwise I may get permanent damage due to severe involuntary eye-roll.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#134
This is one of the most important posts I’ve read on HN in a while. 7 years ago I broke in as an inexperienced dev without a degree because some budget strapped team took a (hedged) chance on me and offered a paid internship. They mentored me a huge amount in a way I have never seen at another company, as well as several other junior devs. Most every one is in a senior position today, and some have stayed at the company. This is not happening anymore as far as I can tell - I know plenty of people with the knack for it but the door seems to be closed, because companies do not want to take the risk.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#135

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

I don't think dedicated mentorship is required for junior devs. There's usually code reviews in which they can pick up on a lot, a mountain of resources online, and there's nothing stopping them from asking for help/opinions from fellow co-workers when tackling a problem.

Code review is horrible way to teach. Especially with reviewers common in tech who just can't tell difference between differences of opinion and crappy code. Or difference between "how I would did it" and bad code.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#136
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

That's true but it also misses the point: A portion of the limited money-pool you could have used for their raise is already gone, spend in the extra costs (direct or opportunity) of the training period. There isn't much of a "raw mercenary economics" argument for training (which the MBA types prefer), you've got to talk about intangibles like loyalty, goodwill, social connections, etc.

But if they leave, now you have to pay to train a new junior dev, and you still have to pay full price for a different senior dev.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#137
post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

> No one wants to train junior devs. Many dev shops want junior devs, and that's a great place to get experience if you get placed on-site with a good client. Also cash cow businesses where tech isn't their core competency (media, fashion, pharma, etc.) will hire junior devs. Basically if you're spending all your time trying to get hired by a startup or by FAAMG then you're going to have a bad time, but if you focus…

That's weird, in my experience FAAMG (maybe less so Apple) hire junior devs by the truckload. However, I don't think they are typically in the business of hiring bootcamp graduates; it's mostly new grads or people transitioning from a similarly technical job/advanced degree in e.g. physics or math.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#138
post #131

My two cents: simple supply and demand. The slow deflation of the startup bubble of the past five years or so has killed the junior developer. Once upon a time, there so much competition for engineering talent in the startup world that even developers with little to no experience and/or formal training were being handed lucrative jobs. Looking back we see clear signs of a seller's market in talent: companies went out…

As someone starting to teach myself how to code, I'd be interested to hear more about the basic coding tasks people are failing at.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

This is the answer, but they just won't listen. Management at so many firms have convinced themselves that developers leave because of all these magical reasons that aren't either 1) they're dissatisfied with their pay and you're not listening 2) they're dissatisfied with their working conditions (bullpens or open offices anyone?) so they'll never keep their best people and they'll never learn.

That's because fixing 1 and 2 are really expensive. On top of that, the further removed someone is from the work being done, the more they want people to look "busy".

I got moved from a desk in in a dead end office with to a desk in a bullpen so that I could be "closer to the people who I work with." My performance fell off a cliff. People would stop by all the time to check up on things, there was always a conversation going on. It was incredibly stressful and I slowly burned out trying to maintain my level of productivity.

My boss (the director of the org.) started asking me why I was making mistakes and forgetting deadlines. I told him that it was entirely because of my new desk, and he said he would do what he could to help.

A couple of months go by, and we have another meeting. I say the same thing.

A few more months go by, we have another meeting. I say the same thing. He said he asked people to keep their conversations quieter.

A few more months go by, and we have a meeting, and I tell my boss I'm leaving because I'm burned out, and my desk is the #1 culprit. He and HR were like "you should have let us know before it got to this point."

I don't think there was a chance for them to understand the issue, regardless of how I articulated my concerns. To them, my new desk was an upgrade from the old desk. It was bigger, had lots of drawers, was closer to the "desirable" part of the building.

To me, it meant that everyone had to walk by my desk, and would use the time to chat, and ask questions that would be better handled via email. It was nice being closer to the team, but I had a way different workflow from everyone else. My boss probably thought it was great that everyone could turn around and ask me a question the second they thought of it, but it meant I was getting interrupted 3-4 times an hour, when I used to be able to work for 3 hours straight without seeing anyone.

I've honestly been thinking of calling up my old boss and asking him if he wants to grab a drink to see if he ever wrapped his head around why I left. To this day I'm baffled by the entire situation.

TL;DR: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#140
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think dedicated mentorship is required for junior devs. There's usually code reviews in which they can pick up on a lot, a mountain of resources online, and there's nothing stopping them from asking for help/opinions from fellow co-workers when tackling a problem.

Code review is horrible way to teach. Especially with reviewers common in tech who just can't tell difference between differences of opinion and crappy code. Or difference between "how I would did it" and bad code.

I don’t agree with this at all. It’s up to the participants to argue their points and see who has more valid designs. I became a much much better programmer by learning from senior devs who review my code.
Post reply on HN