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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#151
I've built a new of 4 developers team since September. 2 out of those devs are Juniors; or at least, formally they are, as this is their first "real", paid job.

But at the same time, these two are much better than many, many "senior" developers who came in asking for very competitive salaries and couldn't answer the most basic of questions. (My satndard is to ask about stack and heap; most of them just say something along the lines "value types on the stack, reference types of the heap" and cannot even connect stack the data structure with stack in memory.) Meanwhile, one of these "Juniors", when I asked him to talk about something he knew very well and was passionate about, explained AI techniques (game AI, not ML) that I never even dove into myself – instead of checking him, I was learning something new from an intervewee, and it doesn't happen often.

I really feel that I got the best deal, sitting through all these interviews regardless of experience and without any real filters by CV, because in the end I found these two - hard-working, talented and with more knowledge you would reasonably expect from a junior.

Don't save time on hiring. Don't create illusion of knowledge by reading too much from CV or using labels like "junior" and "senior". Rather, admit to yourself that you don't really know someone's skill level until you talk to them or give em the test assingment.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#152

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

I feel like the current trend of agile development process common in startups now somewhat works against senior devs' interests to mentor junior devs. There simply isn't time allocated for this. Senior devs are held accountable for what they deliver, and doing so on time. This is among other things like code reviewing PRs and attending meetings. For most senior devs working under this circumstance, the best they could do is answer questions of junior devs when they ask them.

I was fortunate enough to be moved into a lead role at the current place after a few months, and expectation of my amount of individual-contribution is set lower than that of other IC members of the team. This has allowed me to spend a little more time on mentoring junior devs. I can see that for other senior devs, it simply isn't realistic to expect them to spend time on mentoring, with the agile schedule. This is how I had felt myself before moving to the team lead role.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#153
post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

> No one wants to train junior devs. Many dev shops want junior devs, and that's a great place to get experience if you get placed on-site with a good client. Also cash cow businesses where tech isn't their core competency (media, fashion, pharma, etc.) will hire junior devs. Basically if you're spending all your time trying to get hired by a startup or by FAAMG then you're going to have a bad time, but if you focus…

It's pretty interesting -- as a startup founder leading a dev team of ~10 people now, I've hired almost all junior level candidates. We never had a posting for "Junior Software Engineer" though. We just had one posting and considered everyone who applied separately and within the context of their experience.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#154
post #131

My two cents: simple supply and demand. The slow deflation of the startup bubble of the past five years or so has killed the junior developer. Once upon a time, there so much competition for engineering talent in the startup world that even developers with little to no experience and/or formal training were being handed lucrative jobs. Looking back we see clear signs of a seller's market in talent: companies went out…

I'm curious about what the common deficiencies that your encountering are. Do you mean lack of knowledge and testing and more applicable skills?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in my life have expressed interest in becoming developers and going to bootcamps, and such. I tell them, it's not really a job, it's more of a lifestyle. You need to love learning, tinkering, and hacking. Want to go to conferences and play around with pet projects. It's a forever evolving field.

I hear you on almost everything...I love tinkering, hacking, reading, pondering, side "experiments" (I think "project" is a bit grandiose for what I hack on from time to time)...but holy hell do I hate conferences and things like that. I just don't get it...most every conference I've seen could have been summed up in a quick article or powerpoint...and I don't get any personal thrills from the "live experience". That…

I'm from another field, but I love love love conferences. It's like an annual reunion of my peers, days of detailed talks and better questions, and vast amounts of network chat that I find interesting and valuable.

I see a lot of anti-conference comments here on HN, and I don't get it. Every week I've spent at a conference has been highly illuminating and motivating, and recharged my fascination. This is all followed by presentations to the larger team of what I learned so that the benefits of the experience were broadly dispersed.

3-5 days in a new city seems like a huge win with the professional benefits. What am I missing?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

If you're going to end up paying market rate anyway, why not just skip the training cost and hire them after someone else has put in the hard yards?

Because the problem domain, process and tooling is specific to your company and a senior person also needs time to learn them.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#157
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market rate compensation, non-toxic culture, and realistic expectations for work output solves 90% of the reasons reasonable people leave jobs. People claim all sorts of reasons for leaving jobs but its always one of those three or uncertainty about company longevity. (i.e. acquisition/financial difficulties for the company) The other 10% is people who are naive or have a family/relocation related issue that you can…

Comeon now, there are more reasons than that for people to leave, like a new exciting opportunity appearing.

People _say_ that to acquaintances, to coworkers. Just like they stay positive in the workplace and a bunch of other fronts people keep up as part of work life. Your job at work is to sell yourself and your skillset.

With people you talk with honestly outside of work YMMV but I've never seen that as a legitimate thing except with naive people who ended up regretting it. I've only seen people being happy with it when they were already underpaid, unhappy with the culture, or forced to work absurd hours to keep their jobs.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#158
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

That's true but it also misses the point: A portion of the limited money-pool you could have used for their raise is already gone, spend in the extra costs (direct or opportunity) of the training period. There isn't much of a "raw mercenary economics" argument for training (which the MBA types prefer), you've got to talk about intangibles like loyalty, goodwill, social connections, etc.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Let's say you train someone whose salary is [x]. After training, their market salary would be 30% higher; [1.3x].

Are you suggesting that if they end up with a hypothetical 10% raise, to [1.1x] because [.2x] was spent on training?

That's absurd. You can't just walk out on the street and hire a person who is already trained for [1.3x]. You have to devote resources to the hiring process, which are probably nearly as expensive as training up a junior dev, all things considered.

I honestly think the difference in the second example is that the expenses in the second example are paying the kinds of people who make stupid personnel decisions like this.

I'm obviously cynical about the whole thing, but it seems that MBA-style thinking is almost deliberately evil. I have friends who have gotten MBAs from top schools, and friends who work in management consulting for the Big 4, and I've talked at length with them about their feelings about business practices that they implement and support. I literally have never gotten an answer that justifies philosophical objections to their work, beyond perhaps "well, it's just the way it's done."

I think it's a myth that organizations have to behave in a deliberately sociopathic manner in order to be successful. I mean, to a certain extent being a sociopath is an advantage, but I really don't think that's really a necessity.

On the flip side, I acknowledge that I am not very good at divorcing who I am from what I do. It's why I've made a career helping non-profits and social enterprises. I'd probably be a healthier person if I were able to get less invested in what I do.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#159
post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

You're missing a rather obvious point. A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Another point missing is that sometimes there are very hard problems (eg. self-driving cars, fusion power, DNA pattern matching) that need solving quickly and that's what some companies try to do, there are other type of companies that solve move mundane problems (hr software, customer relation management software, email tool) that have been solved over and over again. To bundle all companies into one category when it comes to training junior devs is a mistake, junior devs could be trained at companies working on easier problems much more cost effectively and efficiently.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#160
My company hires junior devs. We mentor them and train them up. When their skill level goes up they get paid more after reviews. Some have left and that's fine and is natural in a company. We take interns on too and have hired from that pool as well.
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