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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#91

Post by Alex3917 »

mooreds wrote: post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

> No one wants to train junior devs.

Many dev shops want junior devs, and that's a great place to get experience if you get placed on-site with a good client. Also cash cow businesses where tech isn't their core competency (media, fashion, pharma, etc.) will hire junior devs.

Basically if you're spending all your time trying to get hired by a startup or by FAAMG then you're going to have a bad time, but if you focus on the types of companies that actually hire junior devs then you shouldn't have too much trouble at least getting interviews. It's obviously still very difficult because you're pretty much useless, but if you're at least willing to put in the time to do the hiring homework assignments then you'll get taken seriously as a candidate.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#94

Post by wlesieutre »

CydeWeys wrote: post #61
mooreds wrote: post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#95

Post by biotech »

chrismcb wrote: post #90
AFNobody wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market rate compensation, non-toxic culture, and realistic expectations for work output solves 90% of the reasons reasonable people leave jobs. People claim all sorts of reasons for leaving jobs but its always one of those three or uncertainty about company longevity. (i.e. acquisition/financial difficulties for the company) The other 10% is people who are naive or have a family/relocation related issue that you can…

When I first got into programming, as a high school intern in the early eighties, I was told a programmer stays at a job, on average for the years. I haven't heard this number change at all. While I'm sure there are many jobs where people stay along time, the average length of stay is still fairly short. Boredom and wanting to work on something new is probably the biggest driver

   Boredom and wanting to work on something new is probably the biggest driver
I have to disagree with this point. Switching jobs is a very stressful and scary experience. Most people don't want to jeopardize their income without having some very strong motivator. In my experience, the most common reasons someone changes jobs is:

- Promise of a higher income

- Low perceived stability at the current job (employees want to secure a new job before they're layoffs)

- Toxic work environment

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#96

Post by kenhwang »

emodendroket wrote: post #21

> But let’s say they do start sticking junior devs back into teams again. You have the additional issue which is now senior developers have no experience working with junior devs or training people at all. When I first started working with junior devs I had no idea how to do it. I felt lost and confused. My company was just like basically “give these people something to do so they can learn something.” But that’s rea…

> In the course of your job you probably have to explain concepts to your co-workers and to non-technical people, right?

I love how this is becoming the norm for engineers. I still run into engineers that seem to just code by themselves in a cave all day and the only human they communicate with is their (often non-technical) manager once every other month.

Communication is one of those skills that feels effortless if you're used to it, and like an nonstop anxiety attack if you're not.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#97

Post by fzeroracer »

As a near-Junior level developer myself sitting at two years of experience I've found myself wondering the same thing. I've put out my resume across the country and found few companies willing to look at it and even fewer positions. Most are looking for mid-tier to senior developers. Even worse I've kept in touch with friends who despite having far more internship experience than I ended up having quite a bit of difficulty find a job post-grad.

Though my current company has had large success in poaching interns into junior devs because we have a strong and genuine sense of teamwork + effective mentoring.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#98

Post by nidx »

When I hire, It's ONLY junior devs.

I prefer just out of University before they can get bad habits. Training a dev takes me 6-12 months for them to break even productivity wise.

When we have had intermediate or seniors hired they would not listen to anyone else or care if their software was easy to maintain in the future. I run a small team of 6, I have had 0 turnover for 3-4 years.

I don't want devs who "get it done" I want devs that enjoy the work and want to share it.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#99

Post by ChicagoDave »

I mostly disagree with this article, but not entirely. I do think there's a trend by the bigger companies to look for senior talent, but there are plenty of firms that rely on one or two senior devs with a team of junior/mid-level devs and I'd say most smaller companies still hire and train junior developers. I'm in the Chicago area and it's possibly unique in its diverse market of employers and thus able to support all manner of dev team make-up.

I'd also say that many junior devs are offshore and are given test and support tasks, and this is especially true in larger corporations.

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