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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#21

Post by emodendroket »

> But let’s say they do start sticking junior devs back into teams again. You have the additional issue which is now senior developers have no experience working with junior devs or training people at all. When I first started working with junior devs I had no idea how to do it. I felt lost and confused. My company was just like basically “give these people something to do so they can learn something.” But that’s really not a lot to go on.

I don't really agree with this. I've had to mentor people and there is not really a special trick. I just kind of pair program, and when we start I drive and eventually they drive and then once that's comfortable I leave them alone and leave them to ask me questions. I've found this mostly effective.

Explaining things to junior developers isn't so different from explaining things to anyone else. In the course of your job you probably have to explain concepts to your co-workers and to non-technical people, right? A junior is somewhere between those and you can calibrate as you go.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#22

Post by emodendroket »

tensor wrote: post #14
aphextron wrote: post #9

I think the "Junior" title is used entirely by companies to get a discount at salary negotiations these days. I work with a large mix of mid level, senior, and "Junior" developers by title. The practical difference in our technical skill levels is almost nonexistent. The proper progression should be: Intern -> Developer -> Senior/Lead, with Senior/Lead denoting that certain expectations are made of your organizationa…

There is absolutely a skill difference between senior and junior. The problem is that junior developers today somehow think they deserve mid or senior level salaries despite not having the skills. Developers are being told not only that higher level skills like algorithms and big-oh don't matter, but that they are such special people that they can even do jobs completely outside of their specialty like design, manage…

Hey, man, if people want to pay me well and give me lofty titles I am not going to dissuade them. As developers I don't think that's our problem to worry about. Seeking out the most benefit for yourself is just common sense in the job market we live in and I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the prospect that I'm not as "expert" in my job as a lawyer is.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#23

Post by emodendroket »

deathanatos wrote: post #4

What trouble are candidates looking for junior developer positions running into? Lack of openings? Lack of response from companies? Can't get past the interview? (Also, are these people advertising themselves as a "junior developer"? Perhaps this is just my experience, but I don't think I ever used that; I started my search looking for simply "software engineer" positions.) (One the one hand, one company I worked for…

The article seems to be about the idea that nobody is seeking to hire junior developers.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#24

Post by cyberpanther »

emodendroket wrote: post #20
cyberpanther wrote: post #11

I teach at a Bootcamp and see a lot junior developers looking for jobs. Many of them complain of it being hard to find jobs and it is. But I don’t think it is any harder than say 10 years ago when I got started. The main the problem is they’ve never interviewed for a technical position before or aren’t looking in the right places for jobs. Also a lot of jobs are perfectly suited for juniors but it doesn’t reflect tha…

Searching for a job is way easier if you have a professional network to draw on and beginners, pretty much by definition, really don't.

totally agree.

I would say a good 10-20% do have some kind of contact in the industry though and get a job that way.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#26

Post by emodendroket »

ben_jones wrote: post #8

Its a large mix of problems. There is infinitely more demand for the top ~20% of developers then the bottom ~80%. There is a glut of new undergrads and transitioning professionals. There is a larger-then-other-industries capital expenditure in hiring, training, and managing, developers - which compounds the hiring difficulties of most small companies including almost every start-up. Oh and there's massive conglomerat…

Well, sure, but I think this is one of the few industries left where someone with the talent can not have any credentials and just be able to do the job. I've never sat in a computer science class in my life (which is not to say I've never learned anything about the subject). It's not easy but it's not outlandish, like it would be in many other similar fields.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#27

Post by emodendroket »

cyberpanther wrote: post #24
emodendroket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Searching for a job is way easier if you have a professional network to draw on and beginners, pretty much by definition, really don't.

totally agree. I would say a good 10-20% do have some kind of contact in the industry though and get a job that way.

Honestly, I think a lot of what you are paying for with the boot camp is the promise that their network and industry contacts will help you. Otherwise it's pretty much impossible (at least in my view) to justify those tuition rates.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#28

Post by throwaway9116 »

klobo wrote: post #15
rumcajz wrote: post #10

Isn't the problem the high turnover rate in the industry? Why invest in educating someone if they are going to quit in one year or so?

'Why invest in educating someone if they are going to quit in one year or so?' 'What happens if you don't invest in them, and they decide to stay?' - Quote from a management guru, can't remember his/her name

But what if the company's plan is to exit or bust in a few years? There's not much of a future for them either way..

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#29

Post by cyberpanther »

aphextron wrote: post #9

I think the "Junior" title is used entirely by companies to get a discount at salary negotiations these days. I work with a large mix of mid level, senior, and "Junior" developers by title. The practical difference in our technical skill levels is almost nonexistent. The proper progression should be: Intern -> Developer -> Senior/Lead, with Senior/Lead denoting that certain expectations are made of your organizationa…

I would say in addition to Intern -> Developer -> Senior/Lead where Lead is Org and management skills you need a Senior/Expert path too.

Some devs will never want any management duties and you shouldn't give it to them. However, they then probably are going to be a master or have really deep knowledge in something valuable to the company.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#30

Post by emodendroket »

rumcajz wrote: post #10

Isn't the problem the high turnover rate in the industry? Why invest in educating someone if they are going to quit in one year or so?

What I've seen (and frankly even what I experienced in my own career) is that really junior people are grateful to the company that gave them their first opportunity and also (to a degree that might even be called naive) invested in what their companies do, and for that reason tend to stay at companies a long time compared to more senior people.
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