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America's misguided culture of overwork

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Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends which model you're looking at. Fair wealth distribution is a sustainable model. If Norway behaved like the US, most of the money from oil would probably go to a small handful of privileged people.

I've always operated under the assumption that equal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since inequalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. Therefore I've assumed that relatively equal wealth distribution is only sustainable when there's a whole lot of wealth to go around. I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an…

My version:

I've always operated under the assumption that unequal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since equalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. [removed the last point as it is fair one on its own, but is not entailed from the previous statements.]

I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an example of voluntary equal wealth distribution in a country relatively lacking in resources?

There is a game-theoretic problem with voluntary wealth distribution. I'm happy to give up my income if all my peers do, but I'm really not inclined to do this if my peers don't.

Anyhow, the Anglo idea-sphere seems to have a glut of free-market-is-the-best notions, and a vacuum where the counter-arguments lie. Here's one, for you, then: if there is more equal wealth distribution, then more people have more money (by definition), which almost always means that more people are better educated and have more economic opportunity. This means more people are free to invent stuff, to start businesses, and to generally innovate. It takes a particular level of education and economic opportunity to have the human capacity to support an Apple or a Google -- a level of education that is possessed by, conservatively, less than 20% of the population. Much of the American population is simply not equipped, by age 16, to have said opportunity. Imagine, then, what might happen if we doubled the size the base of people that could start/support an Apple or a Google -- wouldn't this lead to higher GDP and overall wealth?

The parent's inequality=economically-good assumes that the population's entrepreneurial spirit is static, and not affected by means or opportunity (while, granted, one can succeed in spite of a lack of opportunity, it does not follow that added opportunity will not encourage entrepreneurship or innovation).

My contention, thus, is:

more equality ==> a greater number of empowered people ==> more and better businesses and economic activity ==> more wealth.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, I should have originally specified that I was only skeptical of the claims on health care and luxuries (since working hours are easy to look up). That was my mistake, and I offer my apologies. You provided more data unrelated to health care and luxuries. One of your data points looked (at first glance) to be directly on point, but on further examination it turned out not to be. I pointed this out. I'…

I didn't say you were impolite because you disputed the facts. But because you were giving very vague definitions of what you were exactly looking for, and instead just turned down people who offered numerical evidence. Had you been more clear what exactly you were after, I'd wouldn't have had a problem (disputing the relevance of facts I think it's alright). I agree health care is a badly defined word. And if you wa…

Financial inequality measures inequality in spending, not affordability.

The way they calculate it is to take sum |marginal_spending[i] - avg_marginal_spending|^a (I think a is 3, but I'd have to double check, I do recall that a > 1). So if 50% of people pay $1000 out of pocket for health care and 50% pay $0, you are penalized for being unequal. If everyone pays $2000 in taxes, the inequality penalty is zero. That's nothing but a penalty for non-socialized medicine and for copayments.

It's such a screwed up measure that increasing health or responsiveness for some of the population (or lowering costs for some, but not all) can reduce your score (if the magnitude is large enough)!

If you want to measure the baseline level of healthcare in a country (e.g., the bottom fifth percentile, or something), go ahead and do it. The WHO didn't do that. They ranked nations in order of how closely their health care systems resembled what some WHO bureaucrats thought an ideal health care system would look like.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as we are speculating. What exactly is wrong with learning from the examples and failures of other countries. True, maybe we can not generate the same economy as Germany. However, perhaps we could find a way to copy or mimic what is that makes Germany so effective. The article would argue that is their social polices. It is probably a mix of harmful and beneficial. I'd wager their free healthcare doesn't cont…

There is probably a lot of national pride that manifests itself similar to NIH syndrome.

I spent four months living in Germany.

I see tons more national pride when I am in the United States.

The only national pride I have seen Germany conveyed was for their football team. Some Germans find it difficult to even discuss their recent history, they feel very shameful about it.

If anything struck me about Germany it was how everyone could agree on rational things. Everyone agrees to fund the train stations. Most of them use rational arguments in conversation. Even in emotionally distressing times, it is common for people to fall onto their reason.

That would be my guess. And the only connection to national I pride I see, is trying to be so rational as to ensure that the last time they had too much national pride never comes back.

But then again, who really knows? How many millions of little factors could all add up to the net changes we see in our cultures.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#144
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always operated under the assumption that equal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since inequalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. Therefore I've assumed that relatively equal wealth distribution is only sustainable when there's a whole lot of wealth to go around. I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an…

My version: I've always operated under the assumption that unequal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since equalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. [removed the last point as it is fair one on its own, but is not entailed from the previous statements.] I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an example of volunt…

This is a plausible argument I haven't looked at before - thanks! Going to dig into this one this weekend.

I wonder if we could construct a decent model incorporating education level, economic freedom, income level, income equality, and entrepreneurship.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#145
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two interesting points from your comments. First, Americans can work any kind of work week they want. There's a book -- 4-hour-work-week -- that a lot of folks are trying to make work. In technology teams especially. I tell my teams that I don't care how much you work or don't: what matters is productivity and predictability. Sure, lots of others don't feel that way, but it's up to each situation. If there were some…

> Americans can work any kind of work week they want My guess is that there are actually some herd effects at work there: it would be pretty difficult in many places to take a 1 month vacation if no one else does, even if the person in question negotiated away some of their pay for extra time off.

Herd effects, and company policies. Americans != programmers at startups.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#146
>You know, it’s 50,000 dollars for tuition at NYU and it’s zero at Humboldt University in Berlin. So NYU adds catastrophic amounts of GDP per capita and Humboldt adds nothing

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

So unless the government is managing not to pay the professors or pay any other money to make Humboldt happen, Humboldt is adding to the GDP, just as government spending rather than consumer spending.

Now, it may not cost the government $50k/student. But it doesn't cost them 0 either.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#147
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this story certainly isn't great for discussion (for the points you mentioned) I disagree with your last statement. Comparisons are useful, especially when they're disentangled from the politics. I don't really care about how Swedes are ethically superior because they have more mandated vacation and a shorter workday. What I care about are the effects. Is there a lower occurrence of burnout? Are Swedes more pro…

Two interesting points from your comments. First, Americans can work any kind of work week they want. There's a book -- 4-hour-work-week -- that a lot of folks are trying to make work. In technology teams especially. I tell my teams that I don't care how much you work or don't: what matters is productivity and predictability. Sure, lots of others don't feel that way, but it's up to each situation. If there were some…

> Want a society with 20-hour work weeks? Cool. Go build one. Nobody is stopping you, and if it's wildly successful then others will very quickly copy it. This is a very easy thing. Actually from this angle I don't even see the point of the article.

In reality, there have been many societies with 20-hour workweeks (many hunter-gatherer societies) and many of them were wildly successful, as measured by the health and self-reported happiness of their members. But someone did in fact stop them.

If you try to set up a hunter-gatherer society with 20-hour workweeks in, say, Iowa, I guarantee you that someone will be stopping you in short order. There's plenty of grass seeds to gather and a certain amount of game to hunt, but you will inevitably come into land-use conflict with the other people nearby. Even if you are one of the tiny minority of people so rich as to be able to buy up a large chunk of central Iowa as a reserve for this purpose, you're likely to be prosecuted for permitting noxious weeds on your property, sued for allowing Roundup Ready soy to cross-pollinate onto your property, quite likely arrested for marrying your daughter off at 12, and perhaps committed to a mental institution.

(And then there's the difficulty of changing the culture of a group of people. Most utopian communities fail, because inventing a culture is difficult. People start with an existing culture and judge everything according to it. We don't even know what beliefs you'd need to adopt to live successfully as a hunter-gatherer, to say nothing of the knowledge.)

Wherever you go, you have to contend with the existing norms, laws, and resource allocations. You need a certain amount of natural resources to survive. The areas most richly endowed with natural resources are also richly endowed with groups of people who value their exclusive access to those resources and are willing to fight, or request others to fight, to preserve that exclusive access.

So, you know, it only takes a few hectares of most islands in Micronesia to support a human life, and collecting the coconuts, breadfruit, papaya, and so on is really pretty easy; you don't even need 20 hours a week. As a result, there are already people living off those hectares. If you try to "go build one" there, they will fight you, and the US government will ultimately back them up.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#148
post #92

My personal experience with Germans is that they are hard workers for several hours, then they take off and play. During the time they are working they are focused on getting work done. Americans will put in long hours, but then during the course of the day will play in the form of checking personal email, talking around the water cooler, etc. You can cross ref. this with NASA's finding that programmers who were only…

Sounds like an interesting study. I searched for it but didn't find anything. You don't happen to have a link?

Production possibilities frontier... If I recall correctly, we learned this is my MacroEcon class in undergrad.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#149
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My version: I've always operated under the assumption that unequal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since equalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. [removed the last point as it is fair one on its own, but is not entailed from the previous statements.] I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an example of volunt…

This is a plausible argument I haven't looked at before - thanks! Going to dig into this one this weekend. I wonder if we could construct a decent model incorporating education level, economic freedom, income level, income equality, and entrepreneurship.

I'd be very interested in hearing about what you turn up. I've been playing around with this idea as part of a prolonged debate I've had with a friend of mine over the purported benefits of inequality. His claim was essentially that it takes an obscenely wealthy patron to create a Mozart and outsized rewards to provide sufficient motivation.

Presumably the first thing to figure out is what affects an individual economic agent's long-term output. There are definitely a lot of factors. Here are some off the top of my head, fwtw:

- capital available - education level - area of interest - availability of good mentorship - intrinsic emotional/psychological motivating force of income inequality (this is what you referred to earlier) - individual's exposure to "culture" of innovation/productivity

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#150

This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese. As such, it presents an interesting problem. You could argue with some detail --- such as the role Germany plays as a competitive partner in China -…

As long as we are speculating. What exactly is wrong with learning from the examples and failures of other countries. True, maybe we can not generate the same economy as Germany. However, perhaps we could find a way to copy or mimic what is that makes Germany so effective. The article would argue that is their social polices. It is probably a mix of harmful and beneficial. I'd wager their free healthcare doesn't cont…

> I'd wager their free healthcare doesn't contribute as much as their free education, ext.

Germany's healthcare system is universal, but not free.

Standard insurance is funded by a combination of employee contributions, employer contributions and government subsidies on a scale determined by income level. Higher income workers sometimes choose to pay a tax and opt out of the standard plan, in favor of 'private' insurance. The latter's premiums are not linked to income level but instead to health status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#Germany

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