Live data from Hacker News

America's misguided culture of overwork

salon.com

71–80 of 192 posts

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#71
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is more subtle than that, the distinction between wealth and money. For example, the Rothschilds cash fortune isn't comparable to the paper worth of someone like Gates. But arguably in any practical sense, the lifestyle they live, they're wealthier. European ideas about wealth are less about cash and more about (inherited/inheritable) tangible assets and connections to people at a similar level.

It's quite striking to read up on the differences in definitions of social classes between Europe and the US. In the US, class is almost entirely about income bracket, in Europe, class is mostly about your social network.

In my experience, class in the UK is primarily determined by who your parents were, not by who you know - with there being notable regional differences in the permeability of the class distinctions.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a very lovely country but I doubt there's a sustainable model there for the rest of the world to follow, since we all can't become the world's third-largest exporter of oil.

I think Norway is interesting because they have such a narrow distribution of wealth even though they have vast riches from oil, not because of those riches. Edit: The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund apparently owns 1% of global equities! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norw...

Well, if I remember correctly (I'm no expert on recent Norwegian history), Norway had a tradition of social democracy for a couple of decades before it discovered its oil reserves. I suspect they also had a high degree of income equality, even back then.

I'm only arguing that today their social democracy continues to do well - and isn't under the same pressure of other European states' - because of their wealth.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#73
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite striking to read up on the differences in definitions of social classes between Europe and the US. In the US, class is almost entirely about income bracket, in Europe, class is mostly about your social network.

What's also interesting is that (as a culture) we don't stigmatize working class who've become rich, nor upper class who've become poor - but only efforts to cross the class boundary. Perjorative terms like "nouveau riche" and "mockney".

we don't stigmatize ... upper class who've become poor

Of course we do. Just not any more than other poor people.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite striking to read up on the differences in definitions of social classes between Europe and the US. In the US, class is almost entirely about income bracket, in Europe, class is mostly about your social network.

In my experience, class in the UK is primarily determined by who your parents were, not by who you know - with there being notable regional differences in the permeability of the class distinctions.

It's certainly a factor, but where you went to school is probably more significant. Or more accurately, where you picked up your accent.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]

"More free time" isn't the claim I was skeptical of.

On the health care front, both the OECD and The Commonwealth Fund give the USA low marks compared to other Western democracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-countr...

No comment on the 'luxury' claim; that's too subjective for me.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since events such as the French revolution. It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me, t…

Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.

For example, HDI (Human Development Index, used by the UN) measures three welfare factors (life expectancy, level of education, standard of living). Nine Western European countries rank higher than the US, six Western European countries are ranked lower (including the far more US-oriented UK). Some Southern European countries (Spain, Italy) are almost at US-level.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a very lovely country but I doubt there's a sustainable model there for the rest of the world to follow, since we all can't become the world's third-largest exporter of oil.

It depends which model you're looking at. Fair wealth distribution is a sustainable model. If Norway behaved like the US, most of the money from oil would probably go to a small handful of privileged people.

I've always operated under the assumption that equal wealth distribution ('fair' is a loaded word) has an economic cost, since inequalities in wealth (+ economic freedom) encourage economy-expanding activities like entrepreneurship. Therefore I've assumed that relatively equal wealth distribution is only sustainable when there's a whole lot of wealth to go around.

I could be wrong, though. Can anyone come up with an example of voluntary equal wealth distribution in a country relatively lacking in resources? (I say 'voluntary' because in poorer countries this sort of scheme has usually been enforced by dictatorships.)

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#78
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yea... I'm surprised that what are generally considered the richest countries are all at the bottom: Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, etc. The difference in working hours between those and the US is huge: 1307 - 1362 hours/year compared to 1777 hours/year.

It is not as simple as that. There are many countries in which the official work day is less than the real work day. As an example, in Japan no-one leaves before the boss leaves (so it can be longer than the official time).

Also, in some countries there are many people working for themselves (such as in small businesses). These people generally work more than the official time.

I had a family member work for 14 hours a week (10 hours saturday and sunday) while starting their own business (this went on for two years).

Small business owners break the law a lot and work more than the allotted time.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#79
post #21

This guy has lots of facts wrong - makes you wonder about his accuracy in research: - no federally mandated six weeks of vacation time (though 4-5 weeks are the norm, even in private sector) - University tuition has been introduced recently (though still low, but will rise as obvious source of gov revenue) - Free nursing care / child care for a small percentage of toddlers only - No labor minister of that name (he is…

Correct, but he's at least a bit wrong in both directions. I was surprised to read people in Tupelo are three times wealthier than people in Hamburg; Tupelo might have a higher GDP, but certainly not three times. Maybe he was trying to be polemic? I still agree with the sentiment of the article. European societies sacrifice a bit of growth potential and individual freedom to get better living conditions for all. I th…

European societies sacrifice a bit of growth potential and individual freedom to get better living conditions for all.

Economists can tell you that this can't scale up to the whole world. Paul Graham's article explains it very well. (The following is all quotation; I'm not italicizing, in the interest of readability)

If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, it's not enough just to raise up the poor. What if one of your newly minted engineers gets ambitious and goes on to become another Bill Gates? Economic inequality will be as bad as ever. If you actually want to compress the gap between rich and poor, you have to push down on the top as well as pushing up on the bottom.

How do you push down on the top? You could try to decrease the productivity of the people who make the most money: make the best surgeons operate with their left hands, force popular actors to overeat, and so on. But this approach is hard to implement. The only practical solution is to let people do the best work they can, and then (either by taxation or by limiting what they can charge) to confiscate whatever you deem to be surplus.

...

At a minimum, we'd have to accept lower rates of technological growth. If you believe that large, established companies could somehow be made to develop new technology as fast as startups, the ball is in your court to explain how. (If you can come up with a remotely plausible story, you can make a fortune writing business books and consulting for large companies.)

Ok, so we get slower growth. Is that so bad? Well, one reason it's bad in practice is that other countries might not agree to slow down with us. If you're content to develop new technologies at a slower rate than the rest of the world, what happens is that you don't invent anything at all. Anything you might discover has already been invented elsewhere. And the only thing you can offer in return is raw materials and cheap labor. Once you sink that low, other countries can do whatever they like with you: install puppet governments, siphon off your best workers, use your women as prostitutes, dump their toxic waste on your territory-- all the things we do to poor countries now. The only defense is to isolate yourself, as communist countries did in the twentieth century. But the problem then is, you have to become a police state to enforce it.

http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since events such as the French revolution. It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me, t…

Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.

(I am not the original poster, but I thought I'd provide some info).

As he pointed out it's difficult to find objective data. But you can check:

* Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...): the USA is at position 13. It includes things like life expectancy and education.

* Satisfaction with Life index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index):the USA is at position 23.

* World Health Organisation ranking of health care: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranking_of_health_care_...): the USA is at position 37

* Education index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index): the USA is at 19

* Income inequality (Gini coefficient): (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) USA has a score of 47 (out of 100 for maximum inequality). EU has an average of 31

I am sure there's many other indices. And I am also sure that a lot of complains could be thrown on each of these. But I think overall they paint a pretty consistent picture of the USA.

Post reply on HN