Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#111

Post by arca_vorago » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #91

meri_dian wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think being told that people can't go above a certain speed on the highway to make highways safe enough to drive on makes you a "slave", I would tell you that you're being melodramatic. Civilization is a set of rules, either informal or formal, that we obey. We do this so we can live peaceful and comfortable lives. If you think that's slavery then I feel bad for you.

You seem to not understand the difference between private and public property. I have nary a issue to say "You have to follow the speed limit on public roads", or "No guns can be brought into the courthouse". But once we step foot into your own property, I can take my guns anywhere I want. As long as I guarantee the bullets don't leave the property, I can shoot what I want. I can take any sort of vehicle I want at wh…

Maybe more EU people on the board than US people at the moment... otherwise the downvotes (especially without explanation) baffle me.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#112

Post by crankylinuxuser » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #111

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to not understand the difference between private and public property. I have nary a issue to say "You have to follow the speed limit on public roads", or "No guns can be brought into the courthouse". But once we step foot into your own property, I can take my guns anywhere I want. As long as I guarantee the bullets don't leave the property, I can shoot what I want. I can take any sort of vehicle I want at wh…

Maybe more EU people on the board than US people at the moment... otherwise the downvotes (especially without explanation) baffle me.

I'm not entirely sure how true that is. We do have an awful lot of statists in this country as well. And there's also a healthy faction that are hell-bent on setting their "ethics" up as laws for the states too.

Then again, I'd much rather have discourse than simple -1's applied by random peoples. Even kuro5hin told whom up/downvoted content. But still, responses are intriguing. Sometimes, I've even changed my own views since underlying assumptions I had were false.

Oh well. I'd attribute it to a corollary I heard with voting systems - no matter the comment and moderation system, there will always be defects for each method.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#113

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

birken wrote: post #49

smsm42 wrote: post #46

The article starts with "to open what could become the nation’s first legal safe injection sites aimed at curbing the opioid epidemic". How that should work? I understand that it may help existing drug addicts and reduce mortality from opioid abuse (which by itself is a good thing) but how can it curb the opioid epidemic? I may be that it achieves many other benefits, but what would be the way it may achieve this one…

> have consistently shown them to be effective at reducing overdose deaths, preventing transmission of HIV and viral hepatitis, reducing street-based drug use and linking people to drug treatment and other services There are a lot of people addicted to drugs that don't want to be. In a safe injection site, you have a bunch of health professionals around who are experts at treating addiction. I'm not an expert on opio…

> you have a bunch of health professionals around who are experts at treating addiction.

That'd be nice but the article doesn't say anything about health professionals - it looks like there are just organizations dedicated to supplying clean needles, etc. - which is completely different level of investment than having a doctor specializing on addiction and involved with long enough term that it could actually make a dent. From the article, the most they can do is provide referrals.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#114

Post by IdontRememberIt » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

skellera wrote: post #93

IdontRememberIt wrote: post #92

In Switzerland, we have that kind of structure since ages. They are effective, lower criminality, decrease neigboorhood issues, decrease criminality rate, health issues and lower the medical costs supported by the public hospitals. Of course, it does not solve the major issue: how to make them stop taking drugs. See that one in the center of Geneva: http://www.premiereligne.ch/quai9/ https://www.google.com/maps/contr…

Being someone who benefited from needle exchanges, it’s a step in the right direction. It’s a place where users will be exposed to options for getting clean. Ultimately they are the ones who need to come to that decision but having options positively shown to them will help. Addiction becomes a cycle of negative reinforcements and being able to put a possible break in that will make a difference. Many have mental hea…

Oh, yes. They provide a lot of services. Very good and positive structure.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#115

Post by ggg9990 » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #33

ggg9990 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with no stake in this, I would rather have all of that decay in one place I can avoid rather than strewn about my city.

Hamsterdam. In all seriousness, watch The Wire. It gets you thinking and covers the topic well.

The Wire is fiction. The best place to observe the reality is Kensington Avenue in Philadelphia. I have driven through and parked and observed but never gotten out. The one thing the Wire got wrong was how densely packed everyone is... in Kensington Avenue people are only out and about to transact.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#116

Post by bfuller » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #110

bfuller wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really entirely true. I was an IV drug user before the fentanyl analogs started being pumped out of China and "hot shots" were always a thing.

Thanks for commenting - as always, the devil is in the details. Would any IV drug user risk getting a 'hot shot' if they had access to a supply of known potency?

There will always be people that push the envelope because they are suicidal. But funny enough buying pure fentanyl is one of the only ways to get a powerful opiate with a known potency.

You cant trust street dope because of the fentanyl, but if you order a pure fentanyl analog from China, and you are smart about dosing using volumetric dilution, you can be very aware exactly how much you are taking. Whereas with street dope, you will never know.

But by definition, a supply of known potency will never cause a "hot shot" as long as you are being smart and responsible.

The problem is some people don't "feel" high until they are pushing the limits of respiratory depression, so you will have people overdosing no matter what.

I've known people that overdosed, were revived at the hospital, only to go home and shoot up again and die. Its very sad.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#117

Post by tmoneymoney » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 1:34 AM UTC

Hamsters "The Wire".

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#118

Post by fiblye » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #106

fiblye wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it. Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's n…

Only about 10% of people who try heroin go on to become addicted. The first few tries just aren't pleasant. Cocaine or methamphetamine are probably more psychologically addictive, although not as physically addictive. And, for addicts, coming off heroin is unlikely to kill you. Coming off alcohol might.

10% is not a number to trivialize.

I've noticed a lot of people on HN are for all drugs being legalized, but they look at it from the perspective of fairly wealthy and highly educated tech workers with stable lifestyles. Coming from a small town in the rust belt where people struggle to even imagine a future, heroin is way too easy of an escape.

I think helping people who've become addicted is good, but these aren't things that should be legal and accessible for people to start using.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#119

Post by fiblye » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #86

fiblye wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it. Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's n…

Oh please. Enough of your DARE rhetoric. I've been on hydromorphone. It's 8x more potent than morphine on a gram basis. Heroin is only 3x more powerful than morphine. I was on hydromorphone for 4 months, and then went DOWN to oxycodone for another 6 months. After 6 months, went on hydrocodone. By all measurements of addition, I was 100% addicted. Yeah, it felt good having the drugs. But I also quit taking them sooner…

And the problem is the people that are dying of heroin aren't the Silicon Valley tech workers with good jobs and homes that make up the majority of hacker news. They're people living in shithole towns like my hometown. The jobs left decades ago and people are just scraping by. They don't have enough savings to pack up and leave. I've got friends and family dying because it's way too accessible, and the idea of making it legal and even more accessible doesn't appeal to me or my common sense. I trust the average person to use heroin as responsibly as they'd use a military helicopter if they could afford one from a day's work--and that's not at all.

So congrats on being able to take opiates and not have a problem. If you have stable employment, your situation is in no way relevant to the people this problem is afflicting. We already know that soldiers who abused drugs during the Vietnam war were able to quit them easily upon returning because their lifestyle improved. Addicts don't have a chance to just up and get a happier life.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#120

Post by api_or_ipa » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 4:42 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #25

api_or_ipa wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about the site in Paris but I do have experience living nearby Vancouver's first of now two safe injection sites. In my experience what you describe did not happen in Vancouver. Safe injection sights save lives by providing a clean, safe place to minimize harm.

That's Vancouver. Even the druggies are reasonably civilized.

Not sure if your comment is snide or just humourously dismissive. The homeless, drug addiction and mental health issues experienced in Vancouver, especially in the DTES are very real, and very serious. I don't think Vancouver's homeless population is significantly different than Paris'.

Glad to hear Canada apparently has a good reputation abroad.