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German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

reuters.com

271–280 of 404 posts

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#271
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes. Most of the GDPR is about informed consent, having a valid reason for processing personal data and individual rights. Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare a…

>Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare and an army of lawyers. Microsoft had years to prepare and an army of lawyers too.

Oh did Microsoft stop having users and stop making insane profits?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#272
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent claims that Facebook will not "ever be compliant" and "in the worst case the withdraw from these markets".

the whole EU? Too big to withdraw from.

Which is the whole point of the subsequent thread. FB is not just gonna ditch EU, nor are they going to be destroyed by a new regulation.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they do this, traditional TV will likely bang our heads over how deceptive these companies are. They will point out the fine prints in the EULA with the most outraged tone possible. They will conflate the issue with US spying on everyone ("NSA" and "Snowden" will be uttered repeatedly). Because doing so is in the interest of EU corporate powers: let's drive away, or at least hinder, US companies on our soil, so we…

> the GDPR seems fine, as well as quite defensible. So, that's the thing. Either, it's fine and defensible, and the Facebooks of the world will just comply, and so won't be a trade barrier, or it's not. It can't be both. And also, don't wish for a "trade barrier" for this purpose, import substitution has been demonstrated over and over again to be really just awful policy.

I was hypothesising Facebook being unreasonable. And their business model could very well be incompatible with GDPR. They're an ad company that feeds on personal data. I'm not sure they can get the informed consent of most of their users for this.

Simply put, GDPR could be reasonable and sue Facebook to death (at least within its borders).

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR is beautiful and an example of the best outcomes democracy can produce. The winners are pretty much everyone. It's sad that the US can't implement public policy like this.

> The winners are pretty much everyone. You don't know that yet. There is not a great track record anywhere for implementing radical reform without significant unintended consequences. It's totally reasonable to be cautiously optimistic, but when people are only barely not frothing around the mouth at the prospect of landing a punch on Goliath, I'd err on the side of caution, at least until we see how the chips fell.

I'm with this sentiment too. I think there are plenty of laws with good intentions and unforeseen side effects which range from harmful to annoying and inconsequential (Prop 65 warnings, EU cookie law, south korea Internet Explorer mandate). They all seemed good at the time I'm sure.

Then the problem with technology laws is we have to live with them far beyond their usefulness since the tech evolves so quickly.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the GDPR seems fine, as well as quite defensible. So, that's the thing. Either, it's fine and defensible, and the Facebooks of the world will just comply, and so won't be a trade barrier, or it's not. It can't be both. And also, don't wish for a "trade barrier" for this purpose, import substitution has been demonstrated over and over again to be really just awful policy.

I was hypothesising Facebook being unreasonable. And their business model could very well be incompatible with GDPR. They're an ad company that feeds on personal data. I'm not sure they can get the informed consent of most of their users for this. Simply put, GDPR could be reasonable and sue Facebook to death (at least within its borders).

But that would not be a politically acceptable outcome. There will be so unbelievably many free votes for the "Bring Facebook back" party that they will barely need to campaign.

Also, by the way, this won't bring about the development of "our own" alternatives. Being European doesn't confer any particular skills required to build a GDPR-compatible Facebook, if Facebook itself can't even build it themselves.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#276

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

I find it surprising that people have gotten so used to Facebook's abuse of data that they cannot even imagine things being different. You uploading data to Facebook to share with your friends does not mean that you give consent to have it stored, analyzed, and sold for profit. If I upload data to Dropbox, my bank, or my health insurance, I don't expect them to be sold to advertisers either. So what if there was a so…

It does seem inconceivable to me. How would it make money? Subscriptions? People can't even be bothered to pay for YouTube despite complaining endlessly about ads.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#277
post #246

That article doesn't summarize the ruling very well. Here's a short tl;dr of the actual ruling[0]: Part A: Privacy settings - Facebook tried to claim that it is only subject to Irish law. Court disagrees since Facebook operates in Germany, so local law applies. [side note: this kind of confusion is exactly why the GDPR is needed] - Law states that the imprint must be "easily" accessible. Court found this not to be th…

> Facebook pointed users to the privacy settings page where all settings were enabled by default. Court found that this constitutes neither explicit nor informed consent - the settings would have to be opt-in, or the user needs to be explicitly informed about the full extent of how his data is used ("without any doubt").

I personally feel this is a particularly important concept with respect to digital rights.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#278
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR does not allow international players to store data on EU citizens without conforming to the rules. So if FB leaves in order to avoid conformance, then they have to delete all EU citizen data.

The point is without a European corporate presence the EU loses its ability to enforce GDPR.

Can ads be sold internationally that easily?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#279
post #213
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? Noneuropean companies already have to pay VAT on stuff they export to EU, so it is not as if there is no big collection already going on.

Suppose I put up a website hosted on a server I own in a non-EU country. A person from the EU visits the site, I gather their personal information, and I sell that information to a non-EU buyer blatantly in violation of EU privacy law. I have no offices, bank accounts, property, service providers, subsidiaries, suppliers, customers, etc., in the EU. > You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is tra…

You can probably get a lot less if you try to sell the data to non-EU entities compared to local ones though. Same for advertisement prices.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew about that but I was thrown by this > new VAT scheme whereas this is from 2015. I was confused by language where you described it as a law to target Amazon. Now I see that was just an opinion. > my solution was to stop selling into the EU Interesting business decision. Was the cost of compliance that high, or was your revenue that trivial? > though amusingly once the UK leaves the EU I'll be able to start agai…

> Interesting business decision. Was the cost of compliance that high, or was your revenue that trivial? the cost of having to pay VAT on all of my UK REVENUES (digital services, remember!) would vastly dominate the PROFIT (not revenue) made from my EU sales compliance wise, I'd rather not have to fill in VAT returns if it is optional (this is a side business, not my main employment) > Well I was having a conversatio…

I'm not sure you have that right. I don't professionally engage with MOSS so I will not give advice, but I professionally do work with VAT and handle some millions in VAT a year, so I am pretty familiar with the dreaded VAT guide. All quotes are from the aforementioned resource

> the cost of having to pay VAT

Presumably you mean the higher price from charging VAT

> on all of my UK REVENUES

"your UK sales will not be liable, unless they’re above the UK VAT registration thresholds". So it makes no difference to your UK revenues at all, you either had to register for VAT because your total revenue was over the threshold, or you didn't.

> I'd rather not have to fill in VAT returns if I don't have to

Wouldn't we all love to avoid administering taxation.

> well I'm glad his crystal ball is operating well.

I think it is rather more than a crystal ball when you are the UK VAT lead for a big 4. This means you get consulted on it by the government, get to sit in on meetings with them, and work with the biggest companies in the UK who will also be lobbying the government. I think you rather trivialise their positions when you assume they know the same amount as me and you.

>(payable to our exchequer instead of the EU)

When did you ever pay VAT to the EU? I pay all of my VAT to HMRC despite trading extensively across Europe. It is possible as a consumer that you paid VAT that was passed on by the supplier to one of the member states tax authorities, but under what circumstances could it be paid to the EU?

> it can claim jurisdiction all it wants, enforcing it is another matter

Not at all, the UK government will enforce on its behalf, as we will expect them to enforce on our behalf.

> but unless something radically changes the EU's laws won't apply to me in the UK after the process is complete

The UK is in the process of bringing all EU law into UK law (where it isn't already) with the strangely titled Great Repeal Bill. So EU law will apply to you. Also the government have committed to an open border in Northern Ireland as mandated by the Good-Friday agreement. This will require a customs union, and a joint body of oversight (like the European court). The government has further committed that Northern Ireland will have the exact same terms as the rest of the UK under it's coalition deal with the DUP. Therefore the whole UK will be covered by that customs union. This is before we even discuss what EU oversight will be placed over a future trade deal with the EU. So whilst the government might bluster about what leaving the EU means, it is quite clear that it's options are

a) stay in the customs union and therefore under EU law

b) Leave the customs union and violate the Good-Friday Agreement, whilst also breaking the coalition agreement and therefore bringing down the government.

I wonder against that backdrop how you think you are going to be outside of EU law? You seem to have a downer on the EU, if you don't mind me saying?

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