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26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

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Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#141

Post by throwaway894345 »

saas_co_de wrote: post #101
weberc2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More like the people who designed and operate the system consider everything they do legal This is true by definition. Anyway, what sort of violent crime do you propose to legalize?

> what sort of violent crime do you propose to legalize Hundreds of thousands die and are injured every year from prescription drugs, faulty automobiles, guns, and all manner of other defective products. Why not criminalize those violent crimes?

Manslaughter and murder are already criminalized, at least in the United States. Where do you live?

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#142

Post by stordoff »

bradknowles wrote: post #112
lostlogin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is one that is fraught where I live - disciplining children with a smack. Many people think hitting children in a disciplinary context should be legal.

How do you define a “smack” versus a “hit”?

You probably also need to consider things like how often is physical discipline being used, and is it actual discipline or just an excuse for abuse.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#143

Post by DanBC »

bradknowles wrote: post #112
lostlogin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is one that is fraught where I live - disciplining children with a smack. Many people think hitting children in a disciplinary context should be legal.

How do you define a “smack” versus a “hit”?

You don't.

All forms of hitting children are abusive.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#144

Post by stordoff »

beefman wrote: post #139

A better title would be: 26% of violent crime convicts accountable for 63% of violent crime convictions. In terms of the entire population, probably: * 96% never convicted * 3% convicted once * 1% convicted as many times as the justice system allows until well into middle age (average of five times) An interesting question is: How many of the 3% are released and take up normal life, and how many are not convicted aga…

That was my thought on reading the headline - it's somewhat skewed because you'd expect a similarly small percentage of the population to be responsible for _all_ violent crime convictions (as most people aren't violent offenders; the study notes 3.9% had at least one violent conviction).

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#145

Post by anigbrowl »

zarkov99 wrote: post #75
splitrocket wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study indicates that incarceration, at least as it is currently implemented, is emphatically not a deterrent for repeat violent offenders. As for the public safety element, yes, but these people mostly weren’t locked up for life. What this shows, at least, in my opinion, is that much more intensive psychological and therapeutic interventions are needed, because if anything, incarceration as it currently exists w…

Or, more simply, you could incarcerate repeat offenders for longer periods of time.

We've taken that approach for quite a while in the US and the results are bad, to put it mildly.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#146

Post by wu-ikkyu »

zarkov99 wrote: post #127
mapgrep wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the concrete benefit of simplicity in this context, and how do you quantify whatever that benefit is? Becaue the cost is both clear and intensive: Depriving a human being of liberty for additional years or decades. This should be done only when absolutely neccessary, should it not? We disapprove of imprisonable offenses intensely, but these are still human beings, with rights. It seems to me a humane system d…

Simple in the sense that if you can identify this 1%, keeping them locked up or otherwise away from the rest of society longer will very effectively reduce crime. There is no way that therapy is going to be as effective. We are talking about repeated violent offenders here, really dangerous individuals. Of course they are still people but their happiness is secondary to keeping them from repeatedly inflicting harm on…

>keeping them locked up or otherwise away from the rest of society longer will very effectively reduce crime.

The problem with this is it only looks at the problem from a maintenance perspective rather than a preventative root cause analysis. Like adressing the relationship between cyclical poverty and cyclical incarceration

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#147

Post by anigbrowl »

Anon1096 wrote: post #99
splitrocket wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, true. So, in order to improve the system and reduce crime, you need to understand those who are currently not effectively deterred. More of the same is not going to work if you hope to improve outcomes.

But you don't want people who currently aren't committing crimes to begin doing so. Who's to say that the current deterred subset of the population won't begin to commit crimes if our style of punishment is changed?

That seems to start from the assumption that everyone would commit crime if they could.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#148

Post by ctlby »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #133
acdha wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Studies like this are hard, because they're usually labeled 'racist', or it turns into an ad hominem attack on the authors, or struck down in the media for singling out some minority group. I think you’re confusing studies with conclusions. What you’re describing doesn’t happen but what is common are studies finding a correlation which leads to someone claiming causation and then complaining when they’re criticized…

Also people often make an unfounded extrapolation from arrest or conviction stats to crimes committed. We can accurately measure arrests or convictions fairly easily so we frequently have statistics for those, but it is very hard to accurately measure who is committing crimes. People often like to assume that there is a direct correspondence between arrests/convictions and crimes committed, but that is an unjustified…

It’s not at all hard, and obviously so: for most crimes (e.g. assault, rape, robbery, murder), the perpetrator’s race is observable. The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) and National Incident Based Reporting System (NIBRS) measure exactly this, and surprise, surprise: offense rates and arrest rates line up pretty exactly for every race across every category of crime.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#149

Post by anigbrowl »

scarmig wrote: post #130
coldtea wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people (in the US at least, not, say, Sweden) care more about revenge and suffering inflicted on the criminals than rehabilitating them (or even preventing them from doing more harm -- they are e.g. totally ok if they do more harm, but inside, to other inmates). What I hope is that those people get to experience prison for inside, and even better, for some BS reason, like the reasons tons of people are in jai…

Isn't there a bit of irony there? In that you want to send the send-people-to-prison-to-suffer people to prison to suffer?

Well, as long as they're promoting the idea they may as well get a taste of their own medicine. It's not like they don't have access to alternative arguments based on empathy or moral principles or empirical data showing that their highly punitive approach works poorly.

Re: 26% of violent crime convicts account for 63% of violent crime conviction (2014)

#150

Post by michaelmrose »

zarkov99 wrote: post #137
derekdahmer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would work but incarceration is an unscalable solution. Some CA stats: - $71k/person/year - 130,000 inmates - 135% of capacity - highest rate of incarceration in the world We're maxed out - and all this doesn't even solve the root issues of mental illness and poverty. We need alternative ideas with better ROI.

Sure. But what are these alternatives? 1% of the population are psychopaths and no one knows how to make them not be so. What else can we do but put them away?

Either why aren't 1% of people psychopaths in other developed nations or alternatively why are these 1% behaving in other nations.
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