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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

511–520 of 584 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yeah I'm arguing that. I used to try to help these people. I spent a lot of time doing it in fact. I would try to teach people in my town about computers but was told it was "geek stuff". I would try to get them to read books but again...that's for the nerds. I'd try to tell them there's more to life than football (was told there wasn't). I would tell them that maybe it wasn't a great idea to use crystal meth (this…

Yes, my town was a hellhole and very, very small. I'm the only person who has achieved professional success. Most are dead, in jail or hooked on drugs. My relatives included. > You were the valedictorian of your high school No, I was a very poor student as I knew back then that school had little to do with success. > worked jobs on the side to make money There were no jobs in my town. I admit I'm making some assumpti…

>No, I was a very poor student as I knew back then that school had little to do with success.

See, this is the kind of thing I mean. This is essentially a post-hoc justification of your success. Why did you "know that school had little to do with success". Why didn't your classmates? Did the valedictorian also end up on drugs and in jail? Or did they just end up less successful, despite working hard?

I mean I can actually take this same argument and apply it to some absolutely terrible choices: "I knew school had very little to do with success, so I decided to forgo school and start hustling and selling drugs at a young age, and here I am now an upper ranking member of a street gang, by many measures a fairly successful person". It's not like everyone who does the first does the second. A lot of them end up dead or in jail. But given what you've said so far, you would believe that individuals should follow that advice.

And if that's not the case, I ask what the difference between

> Take my advice, ignore your schoolwork and work with computers instead, you could become a millionaire, just look at Bill Gates!

and

> Take my advice, ignore your schoolwork and start selling drugs instead, you could become a millionaire, just look at [insert local gang leader or dealer]!

I could be wrong, but it really sounds like you're looking at your past through rose colored glasses. And as a result of this, you ascribe your success more to the "smart choices" you made than to the "lucky choices" or "lucky breaks" or "random opportunities" you got. I'd suggest you go out and look for people from similar backgrounds who made similar choices to you, I think you'll find it will be sobering how many of them didn't find success, despite the hard work, and that you're luckier than you think. Heck, I think if you really try and take an objective look, you'll find that some of the people who you feel like made worse choices than you were more similar to you thank you think, but didn't get the same lucky break.

Just in general, I think it's a good idea spending more time listening to unsuccessful people. It reminds me how they're not so different from me, and that's why I think privilege theory is both important and often correct. I hope you take the time to do that too.

Edit: I also think you're misunderstanding my use of the word bias in this context. I mean "evolutionarily hardwired to view things through a certain, objectively wrong, lens". See my earlier citations for how that reveals itself, but the result is that you, like everyone, are likely to take more credit for your achievements than you objectively deserve. This isn't unique to you, but it means that I basically have to take your entire description of your success and everyone else's failures with a grain of salt.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing software is not difficult. Anyone can do it. The hard part is learning to structure your thinking such that the software you will be writing will actually solve a problem as it currently exists in a cost-effective way. With that skill, you don't even always need to know how to write software programs. Sometimes, you're better off delegating specific tasks to humans. When someone hands you a problem like "make…

‘Writing software is not difficult. Anyone can do it’ The drop out rates from programming courses suggest otherwise.

It is unclear whether that is due to lack of aptitude, lack of desire, or incorrect expectations.

The qualities of those people who have ever successfully written software programs suggest that there is no magical determinant that would prevent any motivated person from doing it.

Apply the construction from the Pixar film Ratatouille. "Anyone can cook" does not mean that everyone can, just that there's no one who couldn't.

I suppose some kinds of brain defect or brain damage could prevent it, if you really want to pick nits. But in that case the condition would likely also prevent that person from doing much of anything else.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#513

To the puzzle about developer comp outstripping EE or other engineering disciplines pay (ie Civil Engineering god help me), I agree that the student in those fields could apply themselves to become able programmers. So why the huge disparity in pay? I have two ideas: 1. Lots of technically able people still don’t enjoy plugging their mind into a machine. Its probably hard to believe in the HN community but many peopl…

Engineer turned product manager here: there is way too much yak shaving involved in bring a software engineer. Dealing with all the poorly written libraries, unpredictable bugs and shitty APIs made me realize it wasn't something I wanted to do 12 hours per day for the rest of my life. I enjoy the intellectual challenge but I enjoy less figuring out which version of which package crashes my app

12 hours a day, WTF? I've never seen anyone in any of the several companies I've worked for work 12 hours day regularly. I'm sure it happens but that's definitely not normal for software development, so to say "for the rest of your life" is a little misguided. Perhaps you were being a bit hyperbolic.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#514
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your statement but when I said "hard" I meant the work itself was hard rather than the work "lifestyle", if that makes sense I woerked in banking and agree it is a hard work environment , but getting the deliverables done was easy and not intellectually challenging. From my friends in big consulting and law firms the work sounds similar in nature

That's a good point and I mentioned it because you included social work in your list of hard careers so thought hard doesn't necessarily mean doing hard math/logic/etc.

I think social work is a hard work "lifestyle" but also hard in the sense the problems you are trying to solve are very hard. In banking / consulting advisory work, the problem is making the client happy, which is not easy but not as hard as rapidly scaling a software system, or "solving" the problems like ptsd or homelessness that social workers deal with.

I'm sort of mixing apples and oranges but it makes sense in my head :)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#515
post #341

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

Once you've become a highly paid software engineer it's very human to try and justify your status by claiming that programming is exceptionally hard and therefore your status/salary is justified. That's not to say that the job isn't hard... but lots of jobs are hard. Dealing with the constant loss of people around you if you work in a retirement home or hospice is also hard; but those jobs aren't rewarded equally.

> Once you've become a highly paid software engineer it's very human to try and justify your status by claiming that programming is exceptionally hard and therefore your status/salary is justified.

Salaries for the vast majority of occupations are driven by the supply and demand for employees - its a job market after all. Demand for programmers is increasing. Supply is increasing too, but is generally limited by, among other things, how technically "hard" the job is. "Deserve" isn't even part of the equation.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#516
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

> I'm pretty sure 90% of us would just look for a Stack Exchange question When you're starting from scratch, I think the bigger barrier isn't "where do I store this data", it's "what the hell is data"? Try to explain to a computer illiterate person that the latest Mariah Carey CD is just a really big number and you'll get a glimpse of this. The person who knows they can jump on Stack Exchange is already past the wors…

You haven't seen some of the really generalized questions that come up on stack exchange then. ;-)

That said, it's often a great resource.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> realize that you're not entitled to what you have That's ridiculous. The fact that his parents worked hard is what entitled him to the life he has, all the way up the chain to the ones that emigrated to America and earlier. This 'original sin' stuff that people are trying to push just because we are born in the US is crap.

People all over the world work quite hard. Yet, their families don't get anywhere near the benefits that some others do.

They haven't lost them at the expense of those others either, though, nor would the people who have more likely have received it if the people who had to work for them knew that they would be whisked away in large measure to iron out every last inequality.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that millions of people made sacrifices for themselves and their families which cumulatively created the greatest civilization in history. Why should we feel guilty about reaping the benefits of those sacrifices? Why should we feel obligated to hand over our prosperity to those who contributed nothing to it?

You shouldn't feel guilty. The Privilege argument is a way for people to feel like victims instead of taking responsibility for their own destiny. Life is unfair and it's quite impossible to accurately distinguish all the ways life has been unfair to all the different people. Is a white person's privilege balanced out because they are a cripple? There's not scientific metric to measure any of this, it's the new moral…

Down voting is one of the few powers some downtrodden people have in this world. You won't even afford them the satisfaction of at least pretending they hurt your feelings? ;-)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

> I'm pretty sure 90% of us would just look for a Stack Exchange question describing a bunch of popular database platforms and choose whichever looked best after thinking about it for a few minutes, and that outside of extreme circumstances (>terabytes of data, distributed over an actually unreliable network, other exotica) almost any option would work well enough. And you're the reason why I have to mop up poor perf…

Oh, yes[1]. I was arguing why there isn't a knowledge barrier to entry into programming, not why there shouldn't be one. :)

[1] Well, not me in particular! I know the important things and only use SE for looking up trivial details, of course. But maybe not everyone agrees with me which is which...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I've done both law and programming. Law school categorically does not even try to teach aspiring lawyers how to practice. The classic curriculum is designed to teach you how to "think like a lawyer." There are exceptions here and there, but if you want practical skills, you have to deliberately look for the handful of seminars and clinics that teach them. Between learning to program and learning to practice l…

Learning how to do X can be very easy if you accept an arbitrary level of competence as enough to claim "I know how to X". I have the feeling that a lot of people can believe they have learned to program while all what they did is to go past their chosen programming language syntax and grasped a few core CS concepts. That's quite a low barrier to entry, but if that's what people mean when they hear the word "programm…

Don't let the electrical and hardware engineers hear you say that, that'll just open the old debate about whether software engineering is really engineering at all. (Kidding.)
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