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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

471–480 of 584 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a very well reasoned argument that makes sense within your logical and philosophical framework. What it doesn't take into account is different meanings to the term "fair" or the morality of a system based on staunch individualism. > Ostensibly, this is "fair", since you use the same rule to fund everyone, but clearly it isn't actually. I actually find the situation you outlined extremely fair and woul…

>I actually find the situation you outlined extremely fair and would find it quite unfair to apply different funding principals to different schools based on demographics. But that "fair" method isn't independent of demographic. And that's what privilege tries to highlight. It's almost always possible to dress up policies that are de-facto prejudicial as independent of the thing that they're supposedly prejudiced aga…

> I'm curious if you favor a progressive tax system

I favor a flat tax if we must pay tax at all.

> The crux of this is that while you may disagree, its possible, and even perhaps likely, that your success is less "yours" than you believe, and that your mind is rewriting history, so to speak, to make you feel more in control of your outcomes than you actually were. This is by no means your fault or anything, and there are probably good evolutionary reasons for our brains doing this (I say probably only because I'm not an evolutionary psychologist, I can make some pretty good arguments for why this would be evolutionarily good). And there are times when it's probably a good idea to ignore that fact and feel like you're to blame for your outcomes, but there are also times where it isn't.

This is the crux of why I think the concept of privilege is extremely dangerous. You have no idea who I am and I've already stated that I fit some of the demographics that you deem underprivileged. Yet instead of listening to what I had to say (which is a quite simple explanation -- work smart/hard == do good) you fit a very elaborate psychological explanation over my experiences (of which you know nothing about).

Do you believe that poor people cannot succeed without help? If the answer is yes, then why would you question someone telling you that's what happened? If the answer is no, then I think you need to reexamine your philosophy as it's fairly dehumanizing to be told that you're not capable of success.

I also find it somewhat amusing that I've seen this pattern repeated over and over. Poor people claim to know what's hold them back. Rich people claim to know what's holding poor people back. Poor people who became wealthy are told they're experience is invalid, an outlier, not useful. Really shouldn't they (we) be the ones that have the most valuable opinion since we've proven it can work?

I'm not just talking about this exchange or my own experiences. You'll see this conversation happen over and over when someone who is self-made tries to discuss how they did it.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't feel guilty, but realize that you're not entitled to what you have - you got lucky being born to parents who worked so hard etc. Continue to work as hard as they did and appreciate their work.

> realize that you're not entitled to what you have That's ridiculous. The fact that his parents worked hard is what entitled him to the life he has, all the way up the chain to the ones that emigrated to America and earlier. This 'original sin' stuff that people are trying to push just because we are born in the US is crap.

People all over the world work quite hard. Yet, their families don't get anywhere near the benefits that some others do.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#473
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people refer to these things as privileges is because they are unavailable to the majority of the population. It's a very privileged perspective to live in a world where these things are considered normal. Privilege has to do with the idea that these things are so far from being a reality for so many people that it's evident to them that the world does not consider this to be their right.

And I think realizing these differences is maybe helpful somehow, but here is the reality: > In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money ... It seems to be more useful for shaming people. > ... that the world does not consider this to be their right. This seems to imply that those with privilege think their privilege is a right.

> It seems to be more useful for shaming people.

It is sometimes used that way, but is (I think more) often used in a much more analytically useful sense: as a means of indexing passive/automatic advantages that some people benefit from, and as a lens into the ways that advantage might be extended to others.

> This seems to imply that those with privilege think their privilege is a right.

That doesn't follow logically (if group A is bothered that the advantages of group B are not considered to be group A's right, it does not follow that group B considers those advantages to be group B's right), or textually (GP referred to "the world" as the thing not considering privilege a right for some people, which I interpreted as a reference to the context/emergent behavior/power structures that confer advantages; not specific people).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to. > The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fi…

I think you misinterpreted me a little. I think the reason that lawyers and doctors cannot "jump around" is not because, for example, a lawyer cannot absorb the information required to be both a good corporate lawyer and a good litigator, due to it being too much. They can. It is that the system that they choose to be in (law/medicine) demands the individual to be certified and formally trained to such an extent that…

I have limited idea whether its fundamentally barriers in terms of the subject-matter (because I do not know or practice in multiple fields of medicine) or in terms of the social structure (where it is pretty obvious the highly structured/time-based hierarchical regulated fields).

But I will say one of the MAJOR things that I LOVE about programming is its relative lack of artificial and social barriers. In psyche, med, law, science: even if i am good enough to pick something up in 6-12 months, or even if I have already been studying or been experienced in said field (say because I have a family member who has been surreptitiously teaching me or bringing me along on the side), there is an inescapable time, money, and social barrier that is effectively immutable.

I can't REALLY do law/medicine without running them in serial, paying the fixed costs of time/money for both (which almost no one has), and I can't fast-track through either or leap-frog students or peers of lesser ability. And god help you if, half-way through, you then think that something in chem/physics might be interesting and applicable. Or if you have the insight/ability to say: i think i'd learn more over there (well too bad, these are the requirements for the program and this is the course structure and this is what you need to do to get your practicing certificate...and except in exceptional circumstances, that's even if you had someone in a position of authority who would agree with you).

Those barriers have not yet been established effectively in programming. Sure, some people tried earlier to establish things like certification and structure, and we're now starting to see the germination of university degrees in arbitrary specializations, and that force will always be there, but few people take them comparatively seriously. The barriers to entry are low (you could almost always even just pirate some software to get started and install it on relatively cheap generic hardware). And if you want to apply it to different fields, you quickly find the barriers aren't generally from the computing/programming side, but from the social/structural barriers inherent in those fields in our society.

Now to be sure, we get the downside of this too: cranks, frauds, used-car-salesmen, agile coaches, wannabes, fads, marketing, etc.

But they don't stop me learning for my own ends, and if i ignore them they have no effect on what I can learn for myself once I pass the relatively low barrier of stable employment and income and basic hardware. And my knowledge makes me more employable and more attractive.

Whereas there is no way I can participate or do the same with engineering, medicine, or law etc without effectively cancelling my life and/or desires in other fields.

And whereas my knowledge and self-direction make me immediately more employable and desirable NOW and at all times in the future in programming, i have huge sunk, upfront, and opportunity costs for several years to participate formally in each of those other fields.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#475
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of worrying about potential foreigners competing for your job, you should wonder why there are so few jobs out there: it's because the rich are hoarding them. The money for them, that is. There is so much work to be done, plenty of work for you and your Indian and Chinese friends to all have well-paying jobs. The reason we all don't have them is that we are just extremely bad at allocating resources: we choos…

I completely agree that the main problem is lack of spending money in the hands of people who actually need it. There's plenty of work to be done, if only the people who need it had money to pay for it. However, capitalism (in the form of Walmart and its suppliers, for example) does seem quite efficient at supplying material things to poor people. More spending power in the right places would go pretty far to fix the…

"However, capitalism (in the form of Walmart and its suppliers, for example) does seem quite efficient at supplying material things to poor people. "

Does it? I don't know if I'd really agree with that.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#476
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why people don't like the concept of privilege, it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances.

> it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances That's quite literally what it is. I'm not particularly Christian, but at least it doesn't make me pay for the sins of the father unlike whatever this new orthodoxy is.

Some people use it as a shaming device, which is rarely constructive.

Many, many others simply use it as a means of gaining a better (more compassionate) ethical understanding of the world. Unless you subscribe to a Rand-ish "altruism = bad" ideology, it's perfectly possible to understand contextual factors that you benefit from, understand that others do not, and--even if you don't actively spend resources to improve that system--at least keep its existence in mind when interacting with others and understanding the world. None of that requires you to feel shame.

It's like going up to a random person at an international airport: knowledge of the existence of other languages means you don't automatically assume that person speaks English. You don't have to be ashamed of speaking English, or learn their language, but knowing why they might not understand what you say to them can sure help you avoid being an ass.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#477
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong. Even simple software requires a radically different way of thinking than the way most are trained. I've taught 6th graders how to code and it is clear that the way of approaching problems and creating solutions (i.e. creative thinking, intellectual curiosity, and willingness to collaborate and ask questions) really separates the students from who "get it" and thse who don't. Don't sell it short because…

Does it have to be though? I'm sure reading/writing were thought the same for women/blacks/etc.. at some point in history.

I suspect I'm ideologically closer to you than to some of the more libertarian commenters on this thread, but that comment is both a false comparison, intensely reductive, and, I think, needlessly divisive.

No-one is arguing that certain groups have greater aptitude or learning ability for programming; they're arguing that certain individuals might differ.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

I guess the grass is always greener. I'm a lawyer who lurks here occasionally. Most legal jobs involve 60+ hours of work, being on call 24/7, and there is pretty much no legal equivalent of a 10Xer because almost all work is billed by the hour. There is no way to make a contract that's 10x as valuable as your competitor's, and certainly no legal equivalent of scaling to the degree of Google or Facebook. Law is incred…

"something less than perfect and you could personally be on the hook for your license"

You might get sued by a client, but from what I have seen getting disbarred is really hard to do. Like, you have to blatantly defraud a client or something. Just doing shitty work, or even (as some I have known has acutely experienced) actively screwing over your client in a technically-legal-but-totally-sleazy way, the Bar Association will give you a slap on the wrist, if anything.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#479
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Continuing with the example from the article: law and medicine are also hard. Try teaching those to the same set of people. > Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Programmers are not at all unique in their need to understand significant domain knowledge. Essentially every knowledge-based field, including those w…

> law and medicine

Law and medicine also trend towards bimodal compensation.

There is an enourmous earnings difference between the top echelon of lawyers and all the other lawyers.

Same thing for specialist surgeons.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#480
post #381
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a throwaway email? I'd like to ask you a few questions about transitioning from law to programming. Thanks.

Afraid I don't really have much to say about this - I did a postgrad Computer Science Masters, applied for Software Engineer jobs and started new career immediately following completion of Masters. I've known several law graduates follow this path. If like me you've always had an interest in the field and were a reasonably competent programmer before starting the CS degree this wasn't all that difficult by comparison…

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