Is developer compensation becoming bimodal? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#441

Post by georgeecollins » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 8:58 PM UTC

dsacco wrote: post #410

aaavl2821 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

> 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work Are you saying this as a programmer, or are you saying this as a banker/consultant/lawyer?

Every task is easy to the person who doesn't have to do it. I usually say this to non-technical people when they ask for a feature that sounds simple to do, in their minds. But the same fallacy is at work if you think that highly paid bankers or consultants have mindless work.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#442

Post by malvosenior » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #430

malvosenior wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recognize them then do what? Humans are complex and I see no value in using a one dimensional, subjective metric to make any sort of decision or guide a personal philosophy.

Privilege is a lens through which you look at the world and analyze things . It's more or less an analytical tool developed as a response to various flavors of social darwinism. The idea behind privilege theory is to say that, when you compare people, you don't say "the more successful one is more successful because they are better", but instead "there are a number of factors, many of which are difficult to quantify,…

I think this is a very well reasoned argument that makes sense within your logical and philosophical framework.

What it doesn't take into account is different meanings to the term "fair" or the morality of a system based on staunch individualism.

> Ostensibly, this is "fair", since you use the same rule to fund everyone, but clearly it isn't actually.

I actually find the situation you outlined extremely fair and would find it quite unfair to apply different funding principals to different schools based on demographics.

I suppose one of the problems I have with the concept of privilege is that I find it promotes a very dangerous mindset. Having grown up poor and non-white and achieved success through hard work, more often than not I saw people being held back by their own sense of victimization than any sort of systematic oppression. The concept of privilege exacerbates that and thus is counter productive.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#443

Post by drharby » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

whytaka wrote: post #282

humanrebar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money than practically anyone else on earth due to nothing but the physical location I was born. Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? You're not entirely wrong,…

> Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? If you actively promote or passively allow politicians and legislation that bars other people from having a shot at earning those things themselves, then yes.

Can't activelt promote legislation in a dictatorship

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#444

Post by laythea » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

hobbyjogger wrote: post #428

laythea wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is what he/she meant. I don't know what your professional software experience has been like, but software is applied and required to some extent in all industries nowadays, and therefore there is a broader scope required. It is also more of a moving target. I'm a contractor providing software engineering services. One contract I might be doing Subsea control systems, the next OpenGL graphics hardwa…

Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to. > The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fi…

I think you misinterpreted me a little. I think the reason that lawyers and doctors cannot "jump around" is not because, for example, a lawyer cannot absorb the information required to be both a good corporate lawyer and a good litigator, due to it being too much. They can. It is that the system that they choose to be in (law/medicine) demands the individual to be certified and formally trained to such an extent that it cripples this kind of professional mobility. This is not true in software. Not because of any other reason other than society is catching up. Unlike the fields of law and medicine, where those fields are growing "linearly" with society. It is also the reason that I do not by law require to be a chartered engineer to perform my job to the full extent.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#445

Post by aaavl2821 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

dsacco wrote: post #410

aaavl2821 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

> 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work Are you saying this as a programmer, or are you saying this as a banker/consultant/lawyer?

A former banker, have also done freelance consulting work and did an MBA do know lots of consultants. I'm relaying things I've heard from lawyers I've worked with in various roles. Am a hobbyist programmer, been doing 10-20 hrs of coding / week the last 18 months, and interned at a FAANG in business roles tho knew some engineers

The stuff you do in investment banking is at least an order of magnitude simpler than making any useful software. It's basically modifying excel templates and debugging complex models, making slide decks that are 80% template slides, and working on deals that are intellectually challenging on occasion but a lot of it is blocking and tackling and managing processes

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#446

Post by adventured » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #437

Oddly,this is only even potentially true in the US. The rest of the world, including Europe, pays devs at the low end of the distribution showed here.

I was curious which countries (out of the wealthier developed economies), for programmers, are the most out of line vs the median income for that country (based on a full-time job median wage).

The best are the US, Denmark, Israel.

Germany has a higher median income than the UK, but the UK pays better in programming. Sweden's median income is quite a bit higher than both Germany and the UK, but Germany and the UK pay close to what Sweden does.

Canada is at half the rate of the US, drastically below where it should be based on median incomes.

The worst is France by a wide margin. The average software engineer salary there is around $38,000. Almost one third that of the US.

Switzerland pays very high (still below the US), but their median income is extremely high.

New Zealand has a considerably lower median income these days versus Australia, but only pays about 15% less for programmers than what Australia does.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#447

Post by crdoconnor » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

maxander wrote: post #275

namelost wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

>I'm pretty sure 90% of us would just look for a Stack Exchange question describing a bunch of popular database platforms and choose whichever looked best after thinking about it for a few minutes

I used to do that but I got burned more than a few times.

These days I do a bunch of research - sometimes days, including tracking down obscure blog posts about obscure issues, reading issue trackers and spiking code. Can feel like a waste to begin with but it's saved me from some very dark places.

I would not trust stack exchange or stack overflow for a technology recommendation ever.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#448

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #390

giobox wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. Programmer now, gained a law degree in a previous life. Know lots of folks who studied medicine. The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects co…

Yeah if we're talking about barrier to entry, I can't think of one much greater than the LSAT.

[deleted]

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#449

Post by stale2002 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

Supernaut wrote: post #62

xevb3k wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like it could quickly descend in to self congratulation. So to cast this in a different light perhaps another way to think about this is that programming is just becoming a basic skill, like reading, writing, basic mathematics required for all disciplines. Most dedicated software engineers exist because this new basic skill hasn’t yet gained widespread adoption as a basic skill in other disciplines. But wi…

It takes a child several years in full-time education to learn how to fluently read and write. Basic mathematics takes even longer. Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not ena…

> Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not enable anyone to achieve anything particularly useful

This is absolutely untrue.

There are many many jobs that are effective people doing data analysis in excel spreadsheets.

The people doing this data analysis by hand can greatly improve their ability to do their jobs through simple things like learning how excel macros work. This is programming!

There are tons of low handing fruit in the world, where basic tasks that are being done by hand, could easily be automated by the people doing it, through very simple, easy, "toy" solutions.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#450

Post by wfo » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #264

wfo wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of worrying about potential foreigners competing for your job, you should wonder why there are so few jobs out there: it's because the rich are hoarding them. The money for them, that is. There is so much work to be done, plenty of work for you and your Indian and Chinese friends to all have well-paying jobs. The reason we all don't have them is that we are just extremely bad at allocating resources: we choos…

I completely agree that the main problem is lack of spending money in the hands of people who actually need it. There's plenty of work to be done, if only the people who need it had money to pay for it. However, capitalism (in the form of Walmart and its suppliers, for example) does seem quite efficient at supplying material things to poor people. More spending power in the right places would go pretty far to fix the…

Walmart's profit primarily comes from abuse of monopoly (which is not efficiency) and from government subsidies (they are the biggest welfare recipients in the world, since their workers require government welfare to survive while working so much for so little).

Their profits come from economic coercion and exploiting public subsidies, not efficiency. Walmart's primary competitive innovation historically was union busting.