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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

421–430 of 584 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#421
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is quite interesting - I'm actually quite curious about what makes farming more intellectually challenging and difficult than programming, especially from somebody who does both. (Honest curiosity!)

I would imagine it's the constant problem-solving with real-world, "dirty" problems. You can't take the fact that your crops are failing through a debugger and reason about it line-by-line. You can't quickly run another simulation. You can't insert a single solution at one point and know that it won't affect the rest of the application. Your answers are always based on fuzzy data, experience, and intuition. Your solu…

I suspect it's that and so much more! There's a huge science aspect to it now; and every year there's new pesticides, new seed varieties, crop-rations, yield techniques, etc. Not to mention the huge complicated business and tax bureaucracy that is modern farming. I'm sure this is only a small slice which is why it would be great to see more.

What I don't have even a sense of is how much of a daily concern a lot of this is or if it's a once-a-year kind of thing, or how much of it impacts somebody who "only" farms to support his family and may only have 1-2 workers versus hundreds.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#422
post #417
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being poor and white is still an advantage over poor and Latino/Black. Look at conviction rates at criminal trials for example. Are there stats for convictions of poor white people vs poor black latino/black, or just all white vs all latino/black? I don't think the latter stats would be particularly helpful here.

Yes, it's so bad: Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids " https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/... "One in ten Black males in their thirties is in prison or jail in the United States." That's insane.

Very interesting.

However, one thing that I fail to see addressed here is reason for the incarceration gap. The way I see it, it can be partially because black kids are prosecuted more (the "white privilege" argument) and partially perhaps because, for whatever reason, rich black kids just commit crimes more often.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#423
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have to disagree with both statements. banking - extremely long hours with unpredictable work, huge attrition rate (most people who start in banking don't stay in banking), eventual career progression is into sales consulting - long hours, weekly travel, huge attrition rate (most people who start in consulting don't stay in consulting), eventual career progression is into sales law - long hours, high attrit…

I agree with your statement but when I said "hard" I meant the work itself was hard rather than the work "lifestyle", if that makes sense I woerked in banking and agree it is a hard work environment , but getting the deliverables done was easy and not intellectually challenging. From my friends in big consulting and law firms the work sounds similar in nature

That's a good point and I mentioned it because you included social work in your list of hard careers so thought hard doesn't necessarily mean doing hard math/logic/etc.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

> Compare to mechanical engineering, where if you use the wrong steel your bridge will fall down; or to medicine, where if you prescribe the wrong drug someone might just die. Dereference the wrong pointer and the rocket blows up. Forget a memory barrier and the robot brain gets corrupted memory and sees human life as an impediment to paper clip maximization. Forget to zero out some memory in a goto: cleanup section…

And most mechanical engineers are not necessarily making bridges, they are making adhoc small objects.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#425

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

Programming is easy. I taught myself. It just took 5-10 years.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#426
post #286
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't you live a whole lot better in Warsaw on 50% than in Mountain View on 100% of that relatively high Google salary?

Depends on what do you mean "live better". iPads, cars, plane tickets, electronics and other luxuries aren't cheaper in Poland than they are in US. You might "live better", but you also might never be able to visit Hawaii or drive a Tesla.

By live better parent commenter almost certainly meant make more money.

Even if luxuries are not cheaper, food, shelter, healthcare etc. are, freeing up more monies.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#427
post #384

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

> One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. Barriers don’t refer to how hard a discipline is skill-wise, they refer to how hard it is to enter the discipline. Law and medicine are also hard disciplines, but they have actual barriers to entry that cannot be surmounted by self-study.…

I've seen a few variants of this comment, so I wanted to address it.

I don't think we disagree much here.

I agree that medicine in particular is hard on its own. I'm not entirely sure about law, because the legal profession has only become highly-credentialed (in the US at least, which is the subject of this article) relatively recently. Regardless, to not make the trap of my b-school friend, I don't know enough to dispute whether law is super hard. I suspect it's not easy.

(Just as an aside, I'll note that from what I do know about medicine and law, both professions also require an extremely logical approach. I suspect certain specialties in medicine like surgery or anesthesiology or oncology are much harder than programming for various reasons. From cursory web searches, these specialties appear to earn much more than programmers do, and even much more than other physicians.)

Thus, assuming that medicine and law are also very hard (on the same order of difficulty as programming), we can likely say that even without licensing and credentialing requirements, entering the medical or legal professions would be hard.

I suspect we have slightly different ideas when using the term "barriers to entry". Indeed, I might have made a better argument if I had said programming has "high" barriers to entry, since what I'm talking about is clearly a continuum and not a boolean. C'est la vie. When I use "barriers to entry" as a concept, I'm using it broadly. To me, it encapsulates not only legal or political costs, but any cost, which is why I mentioned building a power plant or a semiconductor fab. I am using it the same way I see it used in the various economics literature. In this case, I suspect the cost is that most people seem to feel uncomfortable thinking abstractly and logically, and haven't refined those skills over time. Alternatively, high capital costs are a common contributor to barriers to entry in economic analysis. "Human capital" (another econ term) is exactly how I'd categorize the learning required to practice programming, whether it is acquired through formal training or self-direction.

As far as the self-congratulation, I agree, although that was not my intention. As long as I stay a few standard deviations from Erik Meijer[1] (whom I otherwise deeply respect), I'll consider it a success. ;)

[1] https://vimeo.com/110554082

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#428
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. Programmer now, gained a law degree in a previous life. Know lots of folks who studied medicine. The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects co…

I don't think that is what he/she meant. I don't know what your professional software experience has been like, but software is applied and required to some extent in all industries nowadays, and therefore there is a broader scope required. It is also more of a moving target. I'm a contractor providing software engineering services. One contract I might be doing Subsea control systems, the next OpenGL graphics hardwa…

Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to.

> The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible

You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fields, languages, and scopes. You don't really see that in law or medicine. Doctors can't jump around from orthopedic surgeon to psychiatrist to dermatologist. And it's very uncommon (at least for lawyers under 60 or so) to be both a corporate lawyer and a litigator.

As giobox mentioned, the sheer size of the domains of law and medicine all but require doctors and lawyers to specialize. That's certainly true to some extent with computer science but it doesn't seem to be quite as strong in that field.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#429
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not, shockingly, racism does need to involve race. Nor do I think my nation is the greatest, and all the others suck. So I don't think it counts as nationalism.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not actually well versed in these matters (of discrimination, never needed to be), I couldn't find the correct word. Anyway, you do attribute certain characteristics to members of whole nations without any kind of proof (beyond what "everybody [in the field] knows"). I believe you shouldn't, and that it doesn't matter if the characteristics are positive or negative. In reality, there are both good an…

> Yeah, sorry, I'm not actually well versed in these matters ...

Perhaps you should not be accusing others then if you aren't even certain what you're accusing them of.

> Anyway, you do attribute certain characteristics to members of whole nations without any kind of proof

Homogeneous groups of people often share similar attributes, I don't see what is incorrect or wrong about that.

You are correct though, I do not have proof, but it is something that I hear from and discuss with colleagues, as well as have observed myself.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, people don't say you should refuse to take advantage of them, but that you recognize them. That is, right now, you're misunderstanding privilege.

Recognize them then do what? Humans are complex and I see no value in using a one dimensional, subjective metric to make any sort of decision or guide a personal philosophy.

Privilege is a lens through which you look at the world and analyze things. It's more or less an analytical tool developed as a response to various flavors of social darwinism.

The idea behind privilege theory is to say that, when you compare people, you don't say "the more successful one is more successful because they are better", but instead "there are a number of factors, many of which are difficult to quantify, that contribute to the varying levels of success between two people (or especially groups)".

It's not one dimensional, and there's no objective way to measure or compare things as generic as "success". Privilege theory being explicit about this makes it superior to many of the alternatives.

"Do what" is such a broad question that I can't really answer it. Are you an academic, or a company or a government or something else? The answer depends on that. It's a malformed question, like asking "What do you do with Kantianism?" or something. The best answer I can give is "use it as an analytical lens to guide your decision making", which is a bad answer precisely because its a bad question.

A better one might be "What value does analyzing situations/systems via the lens that privilege provides give?" Which is incidentally also a pretty good question to ask about Kantianism.

The answer to that question also depends on exactly who you are and what you're doing, but at least it makes sense. For example, for me personally, I think that looking at things via a lens of privilege helps me to be a more empathetic person, on the whole.

For an academic, it might help you decide whether or not you are asking the right questions in an experiment.

As a very straightforward historical example, for many years in the US, there was explicit bias against African Americans in segregated schools. This was justified in many cases, through a social darwinistic lens: black people are less intelligent, the proof is that they perform worse, and so we should devote fewer resources to their education.

Looking at the same data through a lens of privilege though, one might instead conclude that segregated schools performed worse because they had fewer resources. In other words, the same correlation is explained in two vastly different ways.

I use that example specifically because today the same thing still happens, as a result of most school systems getting funding based on property taxes, and historical reasons so you still have a world where, in practice, predominantly black schools have much less funding. Ostensibly, this is "fair", since you use the same rule to fund everyone, but clearly it isn't actually. Privilege is one way of accounting for how things that are ostensibly fair may not be in practice.

As an aside, in a much more mathematical sense, I think that privilege theory is all about picking the right bayesian priors when doing an analysis.

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