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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#71

Post by arximboldi »

vemv wrote: post #58
bjourne wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbt, I haven't seen that much evidence that correlates developer ability with salary. For example, developers living in the Silicon Valley are paid the most. Not because they are the best, but because they are living in the Silicon Valley. Geographical factors play a much bigger role in compensation than developer ability.

But that 'greater' SV salary for a junior developer can give you less purchasing power than a 'lower' salary for a senior somewhere in Europe, due to cost of living. Granted, money is 'absolute' if you use it to e.g travel around the world, but most people don't do that. In general money is 'relative' to one's environment.

Not really. I did the math in the past because I seriously considered moving to the US cuz I got an offer there. In my estimates, you would end up spending the same % of your salary in surviving, but of course the remaining let's say 30%, is simply a lot. Also a lot of things are not really that expensive (most things that are not housing, or maybe eating out.) And when you get out of the Junior level, I think the difference between SV and Europe becomes abysmal.

Also, "Europe" means many things. I am talking about Berlin here. I also know other places, like Madrid, where you just simply earn pennies in comparison so the difference becomes even higher (Madrid is more expensive than Berlin, earn less)

I still decided to stay here though (because of quality of living, work culture, music and partying, politics).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#72

Post by gambiting »

meuk wrote: post #18
banku_brougham wrote: post #13

To the puzzle about developer comp outstripping EE or other engineering disciplines pay (ie Civil Engineering god help me), I agree that the student in those fields could apply themselves to become able programmers. So why the huge disparity in pay? I have two ideas: 1. Lots of technically able people still don’t enjoy plugging their mind into a machine. Its probably hard to believe in the HN community but many peopl…

I recently started working as a programmer and don't like it. I started coding when I was about twelve, and did a CS bachelor and CE master. I like coding. I don't like, however, my work as a programmer. The tasks are just too mundane. I spend multiple days on a RESTful CRUD controller, just because there are so many (IMO useless and even obfuscating) layers of abstraction. The only challenging aspect is the lack of…

I have similarly started coding at around 12, and now I work as a C++ programmer in games....and love my job. On the other hand, I get paid peanuts compared to literally any other industry. But then all of my programmer friends who work in other industries(and frequently make 150-200% of what I make with the same level of experience) hate their jobs with passion, every time we meet it's just an endless rant on how the job is shit, the managers are idiots and customers don't know what they want. While I look forward to going to work in the morning and build stuff that gives me and others joy, and my managers are also cool. Is that worth dismissing for a higher salary? I don't know, I haven't decided yet.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#73

Post by enraged_camel »

Supernaut wrote: post #68
watwut wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not enable anyone to achieve anything particularly useful [...] You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all t…

> You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all those years and be extremely useful. We obviously have differing definitions of the word 'useful'.

There is only one definition of the word “useful” that applies across the entire field: one whose output generates revenue for the company.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#74

Post by tomwphillips »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Yes, it is. And the example used in the article of chemical engineering reinforces the point. It ties into computer science quite nicely. To become a chemical engineer, you first have to complete the course work for a degree in chemistry. Chemistry as chemistry is an extremely modular subject matter; you can solve most problems in discrete steps in isolation. In a computer science sense, chemistry is about pure funct…

>To become a chemical engineer, you first have to complete the course work for a degree in chemistry.

That is incorrect.

Look at the programme of study for a chemical engineering undergraduate degree [1]. It doesn't cover anywhere near the same content as an undergraduate chemistry degree [2].

[1]: http://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/chemical-engineer...

[2]: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/chemistry-depart...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#75

Post by ddorian43 »

arximboldi wrote: post #71
vemv wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that 'greater' SV salary for a junior developer can give you less purchasing power than a 'lower' salary for a senior somewhere in Europe, due to cost of living. Granted, money is 'absolute' if you use it to e.g travel around the world, but most people don't do that. In general money is 'relative' to one's environment.

Not really. I did the math in the past because I seriously considered moving to the US cuz I got an offer there. In my estimates, you would end up spending the same % of your salary in surviving, but of course the remaining let's say 30%, is simply a lot. Also a lot of things are not really that expensive (most things that are not housing, or maybe eating out.) And when you get out of the Junior level, I think the di…

Get a remote US job ? Harder since you compete with many people but doable.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#76

Post by usrusr »

olavk wrote: post #54
kenhwang wrote: post #7

I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…

Yeah, but the questions is if creating tools (software that does software engineering) is so complex that only a few developers can do it well? Otherwise this tool creation would still be subject to market prices just as regular development.

You are looking at differences between developers, but try pretending for a while that they are all the same, moderately qualified to adapt to any environment. I'm pretty sure that you would still see roughly the same distribution, since all environments are not created equal, and neither are the different positions inside those environments.

The stagnant bog of billing hours to captive (e.g. internal) customers for example does not lend itself very well to a toolmaking microsingularity. Bimodality of pay is at least as much about the task as it about the one one executing.

There is of course still a lot of correlation between ability and high value positions, but that's a natural consequence of matchmaking: both high value positions and high value developers get disproportional choice relative to their lesser peers.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#77

Post by sheepmullet »

meuk wrote: post #9

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…

> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees

What does that have to do with what you should be paid?

My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter.

I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials.

In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and be operating as a senior.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#78

Post by gurkendoktor »

expertentipp wrote: post #41
gurkendoktor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could. Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.

Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet…

Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor.

Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#79

Post by ju-st »

tatami wrote: post #63
foo232323 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

6k is far above anything I have heard of yet. The boni sound like a big company, is this a software or industrial one?

6k is even above IG Metall pay schemes, you will never get 6k in Germany 3years after graduation. I call bullshit. It may be possible if you have a PhD or for some not engineering related reason are rising ranks very fast.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#80

Post by danmaz74 »

chx wrote: post #47
jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Yes, it is. And the example used in the article of chemical engineering reinforces the point. It ties into computer science quite nicely. To become a chemical engineer, you first have to complete the course work for a degree in chemistry. Chemistry as chemistry is an extremely modular subject matter; you can solve most problems in discrete steps in isolation. In a computer science sense, chemistry is about pure funct…

> as material side effects (like spontaneous detonation) are rare. My father has been responsible for every chemical (including, explicitly, explosives) factory in the entire country (Hungary, 80s) and later for just one pharmaceutical company for those "side effects" to stay rare. They do not stay rare without some very stern rules.

The OP was explicitly referring to the difference between chemistry in the lab (when you can conduct perfectly isolated, small scale experiments -> very low risks) and chemistry in industry (which is what you're referring to), where risks are much higher.
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