Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most of the developer salaries in EU would be below the scale in the bar chart "Programmers in 2015".
I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could. Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.
Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
41–50 of 584 posts
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#42There seem to be a couple of major similarities between software development and other jobs with bimodal incomes: - You do a job that is, in many cases, a company itself. Lawyers, doctors, and developers can all start independent operations since the product of their work, or the service they provide, is monetizable in and of itself. - There is a very significant skill gap, often driven by enthusiasm at least as much…
Honestly I think its more down to experience.
I know relatively inexperienced developers chasing every new tech on the hype train. And I know others that have been around a while and recognise the new tech as a rehash of something from 20 years ago, with some new marketing.
(To be fair I think you need some enthusiasm as well as the experience otherwise you get the "1 year of experience ten times" developers).
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every field is working to automate their field with the help of software . For which you need software developers. The article raises the question of why people are hired as software developers even if they don't have such a degree. Its because companies see it as an automation problem and not as a software engineering problem. That is also why quality or experience of the developer is irrelevant most of the time, th…
Every field is working to automate their field with the help of software. For which you need software developers. Right, but let's be clear about our terminology here. Automation in mechanical/manufacturing isn't being done by CS grads with skills in RoR employed as software developers. It's being done by MechEng graduates armed with FORTRAN compilers who write a lot of code but don't consider themselves to be develo…
How different is a MechEng writing FORTRAN for mechanical engineering from a MechEng writing RoR for trendy widget bean button SV startup?
I'd argue they're both programming, which is sufficient to reap some of the benefits of automation. Software engineering can be described as applying engineering to programming. Any company that benefits from programming would also benefit from the increases in efficiency, reliability, performance, etc. software engineering would bring to programming.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#44I'm too tired at the moment to look this up, but the NY Times had a piece sometime in the last couple of years where they were discussing income distributions, and had an interactive, and what they looked like, almost across the board, was a bigger lower mode, and then a second, smaller, more spiked mode much higher.
What struck me about that piece was that it was framed in terms of skewed incomes, but the bimodality of it didn't get discussed much at all, nor the fact it was so widespread across different disciplines.
To me it was very disturbing, because it suggested that there was a growth, across disciplines, of two "classes", one established, with a relatively large income, and another, larger class, with a much smaller income.
I was very curious about this, and have wondered what the groups are--if it's because of older, senior individuals and younger, junior individuals. Maybe the latter are trainees? Maybe the latter came into the labor market at a less favorable time? Maybe there's just a kind of winner-takes-all sort of phenomenon?
It was really disturbing to me, and seems difficult to explain in terms of any specific features of any field, because it was so, so widespread across labor areas. It was partially disturbing that it was sitting right here in these graphs at a major news outlet about income distributions, and was not being acknowledged even then. It was probably more disturbing to me than the general long-tailed skewed income distribution that gets discussed, because it suggested (at least to me) very unnatural about how incomes were being allocated, even more so than the stereotypical long-tailed but unimodal curve.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#45Developer salaries in the UK are very modest. Companies don't even know how to identify good developers, so they have no hope of competing over them.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every field is working to automate their field with the help of software. For which you need software developers. Right, but let's be clear about our terminology here. Automation in mechanical/manufacturing isn't being done by CS grads with skills in RoR employed as software developers. It's being done by MechEng graduates armed with FORTRAN compilers who write a lot of code but don't consider themselves to be develo…
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. How different is a MechEng writing FORTRAN for mechanical engineering from a MechEng writing RoR for trendy widget bean button SV startup? I'd argue they're both programming, which is sufficient to reap some of the benefits of automation. Software engineering can be described as applying engineering to programming. Any company that benefits from programming would also be…
Because in scenario A the main skill being applied is mechanical engineering and in scenario B the main skill being applied is RoR.
If everyone who ever writes a line of code is a "software developer" would you include an Excel VBA 10-liner writer? Probably not, and nor would that person include themselves, they're an accountant (or whatever).
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#47Yes, it is. And the example used in the article of chemical engineering reinforces the point. It ties into computer science quite nicely. To become a chemical engineer, you first have to complete the course work for a degree in chemistry. Chemistry as chemistry is an extremely modular subject matter; you can solve most problems in discrete steps in isolation. In a computer science sense, chemistry is about pure funct…
My father has been responsible for every chemical (including, explicitly, explosives) factory in the entire country (Hungary, 80s) and later for just one pharmaceutical company for those "side effects" to stay rare. They do not stay rare without some very stern rules.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#48As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…
What I found really interesting was going one step further and using programming to solve "higher order" problems, such as data science or artificial intelligence related problems. I'm not talking about implementing something in Tensorflow. That again is just programming. I'm talking about implementing something in Tensorflow to solve a specific problem and seeing the result of that. The programming part is beside the point, it is a means to an end.
I think you really need to dig deep and ask yourself why you are writing code at all. The act of writing software itself is not that intellectually stimulating once you've mastered it well enough. It is just one layer of abstraction. Think about what is the next layer of abstraction you can build on top of your programming layer.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#49I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…
Most dedicated software engineers exist because this new basic skill hasn’t yet gained widespread adoption as a basic skill in other disciplines. But with time it will, and the number of dedicated software engineers required will decline.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. That is the dirty little secret of our industry. You need to do your day job AND on your own time, keep your skills up to date, and/or work on open source and/or write a blog or something. There was a post on there the other day on how keeping up to date with k8s is a full-time job in and of itself, well you need to do that - and a bunch…
Yes, the occasional expectation that you should have a blog to make you a decent developer annoys me. I am pretty poor at writing and don't have a lot to say that I want to broadcast to the world. Answering Stak Overflow questions suits me better as a way of demonstrating that I know something.
It's the expectation that you need to demonstrate it at all, is the problem. How many lawyers sue people for fun so they can blog about it, how many doctors do surgery at home and stream "live cutting"?
We have created a treadmill that we can't step off