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The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

economist.com

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Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#121

Post by Tsiklon »

eastWestMath wrote: post #81
mcguire wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Chinese people are still cranky about the Opium Wars, some Irish folks still talk about the 800 year occupation, some Native Americans are still miffed about the whole killing and taking stuff thing. It may be news to some millennials in the tech industry, but the past isn't prologue. It isn't even past.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure a lot of IRA funding came out of Boston. Turns out there were children and grandchildren of potato famine refugees who were still pretty pissed - who’d have thunk it.

I recall seeing an article regarding an interview with a US Civil War veteran in the 1950's [1] which made me think, the Irish Famine was only some 150 years ago. It would have been likely that as recent as say, the 1930's you may have still had living survivors - and by extension, their stories of what they saw may yet be in living memory - it definitely would have still been in the 1970's.

[1] - http://attic.areavoices.com/2011/03/01/listen-to-a-1954-inte...

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#122

Post by FabHK »

foobarian wrote: post #69
FabHK wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't seem unlikely that there could be cultural phenomen[a] rooted in events a hundred years ago. Absolutely! 1. It's quite possible that Germans still have an aversion to inflation due to the 1920's episode of hyperinflation in the Weimarer Republik. My grandmother often spoke of it, she had vivid memories of it, as she was selling groceries in the local "Konsum", had to put up new price tags every hour, and…

Thanks for that link. I find the Habsburg era fascinating. I remember my Croatian ancestors often lamenting the passing of the Empire, and Franz Josef's rule. They sure did leave us with a lot of good infrastructure: roads, buildings, railroad, etc. still in use today.

Welcome, it is fascinating!

And, for example, since you mention Croatia, in the middle of beautiful Split on the Dalmatian coast of the Adriatic sea, there's the palace of Roman emperor Diocletian, then Fort Gripe built during the Venetian era to defend against Ottoman attacks, the National Theatre built during the Habsburg era, etc.

Beautiful Dubrovnic three hours down the coast has Byzantine origins (literally), suffered artillery attacks as recently as 1991, and now is a location for the filming of Game of Thrones (King's Land or so).

Of course people have some awareness of the history, they're living in it!

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#123

Post by throwawayopium »

gregpilling wrote: post #92
fredley wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many rich dudes are at the top of the opiate pyramid in the US at the moment, profiting from the current crisis. It's not an attitude I've come across before—attributing these actions to individuals rather than nations. It's certainly an interesting one.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-famil... This family is at the top of the opiate pyramid.

I dated a girl whose mother cleaned their house. They had wealth I'd never seen before. Their house was massive. Like the basement was larger than any home I'd ever been in.

I was told he was a hospital administrator. But actually he was just a drug pusher. Which makes so much more sense now looking back at the level of wealth.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#124

Post by hungerstrike »

wozniacki wrote: post #71
hungerstrike wrote: post #36

If you disagree, I'd love to hear what you know about it! Did Mao not come out of Yale? Did he not have help from non-Chinese during his reign of terror? What part do you think I got wrong? The conclusion? Do you think "China" just shot up out of nowhere over the past 70 years because they had cheap labor? No. Their power could not have been created without the help of western nations. The most prolific mass murderer…

The plot here is fairly simple and you can see it happening every day. China is the model for a new world government that will be implemented after the USA is wiped off the map. "Made in China" is the type of curse that the elite globalists who run things like to give people. Care to elaborate? Especially the "China is the model" part.

That’s the conclusion that I’ve reached. There are many rich and powerful men on record saying that they are working towards such a thing. I’m assuming this is the implementation.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#125

Post by hungerstrike »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #76
hungerstrike wrote: post #36

If you disagree, I'd love to hear what you know about it! Did Mao not come out of Yale? Did he not have help from non-Chinese during his reign of terror? What part do you think I got wrong? The conclusion? Do you think "China" just shot up out of nowhere over the past 70 years because they had cheap labor? No. Their power could not have been created without the help of western nations. The most prolific mass murderer…

"Came out of Yale" means one year running a magazine for the Yale associated school in China? As for the Western support, I can't begin to guess what you mean. My complete shot in the dark is some Western capitalists tried to make money in China, as they already have a history of being fine with the death of Chinese people to make money.

Western governments leak military technology to China all the time. Clinton was accused of giving them nuclear secrets. Israel has definitely given them technology.

Regarding Maos time at Yale, you can read more about that here - http://www.mygen.com/users/ufo/Mao_was_a_Yale_Man.html

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#126

Post by yakitori »

hokus wrote: post #68

The most significant to me is that all the death destruction and suffering was all to further enrich some 5ish rich dudes. It is significant because this aspect of the west has not changed at all. Just look how our historians are happy to attribute such acts to countries(!???) Until we start attributing invasions to the people who wanted them, those who organized them and those who profited from them this wont change…

> The most significant to me is that all the death destruction and suffering was all to further enrich some 5ish rich dudes.

The opium wars were about more than enriching 5ish rich dudes. It was about transferring a significant amount of wealth from china to the west ( primarily britain and the US ).

The british and particularly the US industrial revolution was funded by capital extracted from china. The opium wars and the aftermath is easily the greatest theft in human history. It completely changed the west and gave the west a significant leg up vis a vis china and the east. And it set china back 150 years. Nearly 200 years on, china still hasn't recovered from it.

> Just look how our historians are happy to attribute such acts to countries(!???)

All wars are fought for wealth. But the wealthy don't hire historians to out them. Historians are hired to spin a fable. It's why every nations histories of the same event are so different. Historians of each country have to spin a tale that is suitable and furthers the interests of their elites.

It's why we are told that the american revolution was about "freedom and liberty" when it was about our desire to steal more native land. It's why everything from the civil war to ww2 to vietnam are spun into some fairy tale about slavery, nazism or the domino theory when those wars were solely about one thing - wealth.

If you want to study real history, you have to understand who stands to gain and who stands to lose.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#127

Post by yakitori »

gregpilling wrote: post #92
fredley wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many rich dudes are at the top of the opiate pyramid in the US at the moment, profiting from the current crisis. It's not an attitude I've come across before—attributing these actions to individuals rather than nations. It's certainly an interesting one.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-famil... This family is at the top of the opiate pyramid.

It's amazing how these greedy people destroyed millions of lives and they get to live the life of luxury. Sell weed and you are a felon. Peddle addictive opiates to the masses and destroy countless families, you get to be a billionaire.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#128

Post by yakitori »

It's really sad how little we are taught about the opium wars. It is easily the most important war in the last 500 years. The wealth that was taken from china as a result of the opium wars provided capital to britain and the US to fund our industrial revolution. It altered the course of history.

One of the largest banks in the world ( HSBC ) was created in hong kong to launder opium money from china. FDR's grandfather was Warren Delano, one of the largest opium dealers in china. The opium money is what funded our institution building in the 1800s. The universities, museums, hospitals, etc were built with money from our opium dealers in china.

http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2017/07/31/opium-boston-his...

It is odd how much time we spend on ww1 and ww2 when neither war altered the balance of power. The opium wars ended the "faux parity" that existed between china and the west and it catapulted the anglosphere to the top.

We live in an anglo world ( formerly british led but now US led ) because of the opium wars.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#129

Post by ben_w »

dogma1138 wrote: post #48
ben_w wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism, like libertarian capitalism, simplifies the human condition too much to win in a pure form. Both have important lessons, neither is sufficient. At least, neither is sufficient for now; I can image fully automated luxury space communism working, once AI is good enough.

A post scarcity society is likely to be inerently more libertarian than communist, true post scarcity does not need a centrally managed economy. Communism doesn’t simplify the human condition as much as it replaces it, the scary part of communism isn’t the economy but the eradication of the self in favor of a group identity.

Your reply finally encouraged me to (skim) read my copy of the Communist Manifesto.

Ironically, the very criticism you have of communism is their criticism of the bourgeoisie.

Now, I think I should go read my copy of The Wealth of Nations for balance…

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#130

Post by dogma1138 »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #120
dogma1138 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not confused because communism does not exists in a vacuum a communist society will be a state. The “abolishment” of the state under communism does not do so in practice but rather in principle when everyone belongs to the state there is no state but it’s an empty and meaningless starlet. Communism also outside of some fringe Marxism and anarcho communism is not anarchist at all but rather very centralized.

Communism is by definition stateless, so any society where a state exists is not communism. You might say that this is impossible, and that would quite possibly be right, which is why there is no real-world example of a communist society. I think the only way that it could possibly work is with post-scarcity or at least much less scarcity that currently exists.

How do you call a group of people with an shared identity and sovereignty?

No real-world example is a coupout and a no true scottsman all in one.

The stateless part is not what you think it means it just means that the state is not a separate entity to the individual mostly because individualism does not exist the only thing that exists is the group. When everyone is equal then there are no senators or presidents or mayors but everything is still centralized so some governing body forms or it’s total anarchy.

But that doesn’t matter as long as not everyone is commmunist you would have a communist and a none communist state unless due to the authoritarian nature of communism the non communist group is annihilated.

If anything the core principals of communism are much more abhorrent than any implementation of it we had so far.

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