Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you want privacy maybe don’t drive around on what is literally government property.
Privately owned boats and autonomous cars are government property?
That post probably means public roads.
Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
31–40 of 111 posts
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah it's about an accident, but if an ordinary police officer can view this, you know more powerful agencies are going to collect all of it (incidentally).
It is the people who want to expand general surveillance who would like to blur the distinction between that and accident investigation, in a bogus attempt to justify the former, and I don't think we should go along with it.
I eat popcorn watching the double-think these days. Laws simply weren't designed for perfect enforcement. We need a new legal framework that can handle omnipresence.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#33'I felt like I was in heaven,' the cop said. 'It's like instant replay in the NFL, I can tell what happened.' The engineers looked at each other like, 'Aw, crap.' As engineers, we have an obligation to think through privacy concerns. These (and nearly all) devices should either not retain data or should encrypt it. Also my self-driving car better not be phoning home or getting updates over the air. I've seen what hap…
Aircraft, even private aircraft, are tracked and recorded. Why should automobiles be any different? Far more people are killed and injured by vehicles than are killed by aircraft. In general I'm pretty pro-privacy but I've had way too many close calls and accidents with bad drivers who were found to be at fault. Maybe there's a better way to get to vision zero, and if so I'd love to hear it.
> Aircraft, even private aircraft, are tracked and recorded. Why should automobiles be any different?
FAA and NTSB agencies aren't known for abuses of power. Local law enforcement, on the other hand, routinely abuse power (civil forfeiture, unwarranted traffic stops, racial profiling, police brutality, falsifying evidence, lying under oath, illegal search and seizure...).
Self driving cars should reduce accidents, because computers > monkey brains, so granting the police unrestricted access to data shouldn't impact safety improvements.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aircraft, even private aircraft, are tracked and recorded. Why should automobiles be any different? Far more people are killed and injured by vehicles than are killed by aircraft. In general I'm pretty pro-privacy but I've had way too many close calls and accidents with bad drivers who were found to be at fault. Maybe there's a better way to get to vision zero, and if so I'd love to hear it.
Cars, especially in the US, is very closely linked to the location of a person. For private aircraft that is generally not the case I assume. I work for a semi-governmental organization in the Netherlands and we track ships. Tracking company-owned commercial ships is no problem, but we are heavily restricted by law in what we can do with the location data of privately owned ships because people live on them.
A weirdly relevant case from Switzerland [0].
The Swiss court ruled that it's totally legal to put GPS trackers on other peoples cars to track them.
The court argued that a car is so public and visible that the GPS tracker is only collecting "public knowledge" anyway.
[0] https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/wenn-am-au...
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Far more people commit crimes than vehicles. So why not forcibly track all people?
You mean, like, track people's phone location?
You may be sarcastic, but I'm sure you know that the mobile phone companies already do this, as does Google if you have Location Services on. Not sure what Apple does.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#36'I felt like I was in heaven,' the cop said. 'It's like instant replay in the NFL, I can tell what happened.' The engineers looked at each other like, 'Aw, crap.' As engineers, we have an obligation to think through privacy concerns. These (and nearly all) devices should either not retain data or should encrypt it. Also my self-driving car better not be phoning home or getting updates over the air. I've seen what hap…
That quote is in the context of accident reconstruction. Putting aside the question of how many accidents there will be in our future autonomous world, accidents already leak personal information, especially if they lead to court cases, and it does not seem to me that improved crash investigation need necessarily leak any more. I think this is a qualitatively different situation than tracking people's location and wh…
The quote is in the context of accident reconstruction, but the point of the article is that we're going to be filling our streets with mobile surveillance platforms that record everything everyone does around them and police won't need warrants to access this data.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can't be pro-privacy and place it last priority behind the unattainable "vision zero".
No one is asking for historical location data, but merely what the car recorded as your input and other driving parameters before, during, after a crash. Where exactly is the privacy interest in that?
>>No one is asking for historical location data,
I am not sure where you believe "no one" is asking for, or collecting historical data. In fact everyone from the Manufacturers, Potential Advertisers, Law Enforcement, everyone is in fact asking for and getting historical data
so where where are you getting this myth that no one is
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#38Imagine a world with less centralizing force, where owners of devices are encouraged to decentralize data storage. In such a world, autonomous vehicles would ask you to specify where to store the data they collect. The owner could select to choose on-vehicle storage, vendor-provided central storage, or a data server they personally own and operate. And in all cases, given an option to encrypt using a key selected by the user/owner.
I would prefer such a world. It provides a different legal context where law enforcement would need to compel each individual owner to turn over data. Such compulsion could certainly still be realized, but it's a more significant hurdle than forcing the manufacturer rather than the user, and it's more likely to see challenges.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#39This is an aspect of autonomous vehicles that I had never considered before. Given each AV has complete 360 degrees camera coverage (for detection of other vehicles, if Tesla, for debugging, if others which rely primarily on Lidar) and this camera data is very valuable for debugging and as a liability reducer, this data is very probably to be kept, then transferred to a datacenter. So each AV is also a bunch of mobil…
I don't think that data is likely to be kept, raw or otherwise, on anything other than a very small rolling window, if even that. What the author of this article missed is the boot full of server racks that have the storage and processing abilities to even consider storing the raw data from a multitude of cameras, LIDAR and associated sensor systems. For development, sure, in test fleets, sure, but production cars wo…
In all the vehicle recording systems I've worked with (for a local municipality's police video recording) the only video data that would be stored is video data that is pertinent.
So you wouldn't record and store an officer's complete shift. When the officer turned on his lights or siren, the device would rewind 30-45 seconds and start recording. It would then record until the lights/siren were disengaged. That is the video that would be uploaded.
So I think a more likely scenario is that the autonomous cars would in fact permanently store and share all GPS data, but data from the sensors would only store what was recorded with a reasonable buffer around a fault event such as a collision.
Re: Cops won’t need a warrant to pull the data off an autonomous car
#40'I felt like I was in heaven,' the cop said. 'It's like instant replay in the NFL, I can tell what happened.' The engineers looked at each other like, 'Aw, crap.' As engineers, we have an obligation to think through privacy concerns. These (and nearly all) devices should either not retain data or should encrypt it. Also my self-driving car better not be phoning home or getting updates over the air. I've seen what hap…
Aircraft, even private aircraft, are tracked and recorded. Why should automobiles be any different? Far more people are killed and injured by vehicles than are killed by aircraft. In general I'm pretty pro-privacy but I've had way too many close calls and accidents with bad drivers who were found to be at fault. Maybe there's a better way to get to vision zero, and if so I'd love to hear it.
I highly doubt you are pro privacy even a little bit, and it is foolish endeavour to trade liberty for promised safety..
You start off on the assumption that everyone agrees that aircraft should be tracked, and that data should be open to law enforcement review with no warrant. To the extent the data can be justified for safety it should be limited to that purpose only and barred by law from being used in any other manner. That is not how the law is today, as these records are used in all kinds of legal cases (both civil and criminal) outside of need for safety.
People that are actually pro privacy understand how these records are used and do not desire to see it expand to the tracking of every car on the road as a car is much more personally identifiable than a plane, and is in much more common usage.
in short, Maybe automobiles should not be treated differently and maybe it is time to look at how aircraft are tracked and what that tracking is used for changing the law to be more privacy focused