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The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

economist.com

71–80 of 140 posts

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#71

If you disagree, I'd love to hear what you know about it! Did Mao not come out of Yale? Did he not have help from non-Chinese during his reign of terror? What part do you think I got wrong? The conclusion? Do you think "China" just shot up out of nowhere over the past 70 years because they had cheap labor? No. Their power could not have been created without the help of western nations. The most prolific mass murderer…

  The plot here is fairly simple and you can see it 
  happening every day. China is the model for a new world
  government that will be implemented after the USA is wiped
  off the map. "Made in China" is the type of curse that the
  elite globalists who run things like to give people. 
Care to elaborate? Especially the "China is the model" part.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#72
In 2018's city of London, I can see small sliver laugh gas bottles frequently on the street, almost every day in my commuting - as Economist suggested, "by then, smoking the drug had come to be viewed not so much as a bad habit encouraged by the British."

Selectively telling the truth and always weirdly emphasis on Chinese government makes me feel sick after reading. I guess that's the reason I stopped its subscription long time ago.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#73

I am surprised that the article makes no mention of the many Chinese action movies made that are set in the time period of the Opium Wars and that make explicit reference to it. Given that the film is made in China and received state support, it is not an accident. By the way the story of Baghdadi Jew, David Sassoon and his rise in prominence as a result of profiting from the Opium War is quite interesting in itself.

I love foreign films. Any reasonably high brow recommendations?

"High brow" is generally not what you'll get in Hong Kong cinema. The director Wong Kar Wai comes to mind, but I'm not sure if any of his movies are set in the Opium War or hand-off eras.

For those eras, Once Upon a Time in China is pretty iconic to me.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#74
post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I call it nationalist denial. Or deliberate ignorance. This type of nonsense is embedded in English accounts of the British Empire. Variants of the “white man’s burden” and the sacred principles of the market can be spun in all sorts of interesting ways. The most galling example of this that I’m familiar with is the Irish famine. Millions died of starvation in the midst of a record bumper crop for export. The British…

That doesn't seem like an accurate re-telling of the Irish famine.

The British government engaged in many kinds of relief effort. They bought food from America to import it, albeit screwed it up because Ireland didn't have sufficiently advanced mills to process the imported grain. They repealed import tariffs (the Corn Laws). Large public works programmes were created to employ the devastated farmers. This was all made more complicated by an Irish attitude that to ask for charity from the English was weakness and should never be done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Charity

William Smith O'Brien—speaking on the subject of charity in a speech to the Repeal Association in February 1845—applauded the fact that the universal sentiment on the subject of charity was that they would accept no English charity.

Mitchel wrote in his The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps), on the same subject, that no one from Ireland ever asked for charity during this period, and that it was England who sought charity on Ireland's behalf, and, having received it, was also responsible for administering it.

Despite this large sums were donated by the English through private charities anyway.

What you're referring to is a later stage of the famine whereby a new Whig government came into power, and it did indeed feel that the market should be left to sort things out. So it stopped intervening against food exports, believing that would make things worse instead of better (i.e. people who were successfully growing food despite the blight would have to sell it below cost and would go bankrupt). Even so, it still organised a public jobs programme so huge it became impossible to administer (over 500,000 people employed).

That state lasted all of six months before the government of the day realised it had failed and changed tack again, switching to a mix of direct relief through soup kitchens and the like.

So your claim that there was "deliberate inaction" is hardly true. There was lots of action at all times and the debate focuses on to what extent the action was incompetent or not.

Food exports from poor countries are a tricky subject even today. African countries export food to Europe and would export far more if it weren't for the CAP, even though Africa has famines, hunger and disease. Should they be prevented from doing so, or will trade enrich them and ultimately end their poverty?

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#75

This reminds me of the articles saying that germans like to use cash because of the inflation 100y ago. It's just not true and likely being written by someone who has never asked a single german/chinese.

How does cash help you in hyperinflation? If anything, you'd want to buy on credit with the 30 day float. Buy today, pay next month with money that's worth less.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#76

If you disagree, I'd love to hear what you know about it! Did Mao not come out of Yale? Did he not have help from non-Chinese during his reign of terror? What part do you think I got wrong? The conclusion? Do you think "China" just shot up out of nowhere over the past 70 years because they had cheap labor? No. Their power could not have been created without the help of western nations. The most prolific mass murderer…

"Came out of Yale" means one year running a magazine for the Yale associated school in China? As for the Western support, I can't begin to guess what you mean. My complete shot in the dark is some Western capitalists tried to make money in China, as they already have a history of being fine with the death of Chinese people to make money.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#77
post #18

I don't understand the motivation of the article. Does the author try to justify the Opium War? Or to remind 1+ billion Chinese that the intepretation of history always subject to rulers' agenda, which is clearly stated in Chinese textbook? To show off his not-so-sharp observation to his readers? Or, to warn USA not to abandon the free trade principle?

I think he tries to prevent the usual happening when a recovering nation with a victim complex drunken on past injustifactions stumbles around in the diplomatic public, ignoring the injustices it dishes out itself. This whole affair would were it not for nukes preventing it, shape up to be just another Germany beating europe to pulp yelling "remember Versailles" in a asian setting.

It's hard to explain, but despite all the reminders of the opium war, I don't think the British has gained much notoriety in China, most Chinese probably have a neutral or even positive view of the old empire.

The message is more along the line of "weak countries will be defeated", so don't be weak, rather than incite hatred toward Britain.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#78
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that post-1949 communist rule has been an aberration in the amount of central control that the Communist Party has been able to exert. In Chinese, there is a saying, “the mountains are high, and the emperor is far away”. If you took a hard look at Chinese history, I think you’d find that there has never really been central control. Governors and bureaucrats of the various provinces and regions…

> In a sense, maybe the greatest gift to the Communist Party was the outbreak of WW2 that set the stage for the subsequent civil war. Instead of dozens of regional warlords, you had a “clean” battle between two sides. When the Communists won, they finally assumed more or less total control of the country. I hadn't heard this before. From what I've heard, the Communists has to fight at least in two fronts: against the…

You’re correct in that the narrative of Mao and communist guerrillas fighting both the Japanese and Nationalist Army is a very common one in China. However, with the exception of the Hundred Regiments Offensive, the communist armies never engaged in the kind of the regular, brutal combat that occurred near China’s major cities against the Japanese. For political reasons, namely to portray the Nationalists as an ineffective and corrupt government, until the last decade there were few Chinese TV series or movies that depicted Nationalist armies effectively fighting the Japanese.

When you look at Nationalist efforts to secure the critical Burma Road into Burma and India, and the hundreds of thousands of casualties involved in fighting rearguard actions as civilians and governments fled inland, the casualty counts are not even close. Nationalist military fatalities are generally estimated by historians to outnumber Communist military fatalities by nearly an order of magnitude.

One of the reasons I wrote that WW2 set up the communists for a clean victory in the resumption of the civil war is that Japanese surrender left vast swaths of China under communist control, simply because there was not a nationalist presence in many of those areas. Hundreds of thousands of firearms, rounds of ammunition, and artillery pieces were surrendered by the Japanese to communist armies. As a result, the Communists were for the first time able to equip a large regular army, as opposed to fighting irregular war as guerrillas.

I highly recommend reading Forgotten Ally by Rana Mitter. This is maybe the best popular history of China in WW2.

P.s. I say this as the descendant of soldiers who fought on both sides of the civil war.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call it nationalist denial. Or deliberate ignorance. This type of nonsense is embedded in English accounts of the British Empire. Variants of the “white man’s burden” and the sacred principles of the market can be spun in all sorts of interesting ways. The most galling example of this that I’m familiar with is the Irish famine. Millions died of starvation in the midst of a record bumper crop for export. The British…

Another example is the opium poppy used as a symbol of Remembrance Day. It's a silly coincidence and was chosen because of the poem "in Flanders Fields". Never mind that a third of the population in some areas of India was literally starved to death to grow that exact, or what it did to China, or how it was the foundation of the British empire.

It's not a "silly coincidence."

"Poppies have long been used as a symbol of sleep, peace, and death: Sleep because the opium extracted from them is a sedative, and death because of the common blood-red color of the red poppy in particular. In Greek and Roman myths, poppies were used as offerings to the dead. Poppies used as emblems on tombstones symbolize eternal sleep. This symbolism was evoked in the children's novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, in which a magical poppy field threatened to make the protagonists sleep forever. A second interpretation of poppies in Classical mythology is that the bright scarlet color signifies a promise of resurrection after death."

"The remembrance poppy was inspired by the World War I poem "In Flanders Fields". Its opening lines refer to the many poppies that were the first flowers to grow in the churned-up earth of soldiers' graves in Flanders, a region of Belgium."

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#80
post #4

It is not true. It's just that politicians need official reasons to do what they do. And it's a great thing to use historical reasons because nobody can really counter them. Not a single Chinese person I know thinks about Westerners as sources of the Opium Wars and therefore as enemies. The opinions move between "West is so rich, let's be more like them" and "We are nearly back to our old glory, now also learn some o…

This is the official narrative that is being sold to the people and being thought at school. The opium wars are a very big part of Chinese history and current culture I don’t know who do you know In China but a few elites educated in the West are not a good sample. Look at the average inner city population in tier 1-3 cities, look at the recent changes in the attitude towards foreigners in China this is definitely an…

Hardly a big anecdote but I went to China once and asked the tour guide if Chinese people hated the British because of the opium wars. She just laughed, the idea seemed ridiculous to her. She said a lot of Chinese still resent or hate the Japanese because of the invasion during WW2.
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