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The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

economist.com

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Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#51

Post by awakeasleep »

Spooky23 wrote: post #50
ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I call it nationalist denial. Or deliberate ignorance. This type of nonsense is embedded in English accounts of the British Empire. Variants of the “white man’s burden” and the sacred principles of the market can be spun in all sorts of interesting ways. The most galling example of this that I’m familiar with is the Irish famine. Millions died of starvation in the midst of a record bumper crop for export. The British…

Another example is the opium poppy used as a symbol of Remembrance Day. It's a silly coincidence and was chosen because of the poem "in Flanders Fields".

Never mind that a third of the population in some areas of India was literally starved to death to grow that exact, or what it did to China, or how it was the foundation of the British empire.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#52

Post by Pica_soO »

wangii wrote: post #18

I don't understand the motivation of the article. Does the author try to justify the Opium War? Or to remind 1+ billion Chinese that the intepretation of history always subject to rulers' agenda, which is clearly stated in Chinese textbook? To show off his not-so-sharp observation to his readers? Or, to warn USA not to abandon the free trade principle?

I think he tries to prevent the usual happening when a recovering nation with a victim complex drunken on past injustifactions stumbles around in the diplomatic public, ignoring the injustices it dishes out itself.

This whole affair would were it not for nukes preventing it, shape up to be just another Germany beating europe to pulp yelling "remember Versailles" in a asian setting.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#54

Post by gumby »

ptx wrote: post #39

> Julia Lovell, a British historian, makes a similar point. In her book “The Opium War: Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China”, she says the move into opium by British traders was not, as claimed by many Chinese historians, a deliberate conspiracy to make narcotic slaves of the Chinese. “It was a greedy, pragmatic response to a decline in sales of other British imports,” she writes. Is there a name for this fallacy?…

I think her use of "pragmatic" is more prosaic than its use in the united United States. She's saying that there's no immoral drugs conspiracy, or necessarily a conspiracy at all.

On one hand that's irrelevant, and I think that's the point you're making: that war was the first nail in the coffin (which had been a-building for over a century) for the Qing dynasty, and regardless of the cause that was the action's effect.

However if you agree with her analysis there are another couple of important lessons: not everything requires a conspiracy (in fact the whole British Empire has been described as being "created in a fit of absent-mindedness") -- in other words the collective local actions of many can have a malign global effect. This should influence any of us when designing systems: do they misuse user data? Exploit or make our customers susceptible to attack? This very issue comes up in another HN submission today, on the privacy implications of self-driving cars.

And her analysis points out another important feature: though not everything requires a conspiracy, adding one post facto can be very useful. Consider both sides' propaganda battle after Al Qaida attacked NY&DC: both benefited (at least in the short term) by portraying it as a massive clash of cilizations rather as a publicity stunt by a bunch of asshole gangsters. The same was true by using the term "opium war" and its continued value today on the Chinese side.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#56

Post by barrkel »

FabHK wrote: post #46
jotm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a MasterCard or Visa was harder in Germany than it should've been. They're optional and cost extra, standard debit cards for a checking account are Cirrus/Maestro, which can't be used to pay online or abroad or in many places. It was easier to just use them to withdraw cash. Sparkasse for some reason gave me a MasterCard that had it's own account, so I had to transfer money from the checking account to the ca…

There's a well developed banking system that allows for fast, cheap, and easy transfer, standing orders, and direct debit. Checks fell out of favour many decades ago, unlike in some more, well, traditional societies. There was the "ec-card", then Cirrus/Maestro debit cards, now cash card, which allow for cheap immediate cashless payment. Why would one want to let a large part of the economy run through oligopolistic…

Debit card fees are closer to 0.3% to 0.5% or so, than 2% or 3%. See e.g. https://www.cardswitcher.co.uk/2016/05/uk-card-processing-fe...

Of course in the UK fees have been "banned" a few weeks ago, which means everybody will get charged the fees via price increases, effectively subsidizing card users.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#57

Post by 3pt14159 »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #19

I am surprised that the article makes no mention of the many Chinese action movies made that are set in the time period of the Opium Wars and that make explicit reference to it. Given that the film is made in China and received state support, it is not an accident. By the way the story of Baghdadi Jew, David Sassoon and his rise in prominence as a result of profiting from the Opium War is quite interesting in itself.

I love foreign films. Any reasonably high brow recommendations?

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#58

Post by desireco42 »

cepth wrote: post #6
Pica_soO wrote: post #3

China history is a warning sign against centralism and the ability of humanity to get stuck in loops, economic and culturally - where it from a ruling partys point of view doesn't make sense to do anything to escape the loop. Impressive is that china at least kept- enforced by the layout of the country, a centralized state. At least it did not decay as much as the middle east or africa - after reaching peak people.

The counter argument is that post-1949 communist rule has been an aberration in the amount of central control that the Communist Party has been able to exert. In Chinese, there is a saying, “the mountains are high, and the emperor is far away”. If you took a hard look at Chinese history, I think you’d find that there has never really been central control. Governors and bureaucrats of the various provinces and regions…

"the mountains are high, and the emperor is far away"

Ha ha, this is so funny. This might be the origin of Serbian saying, "God is too high, Russia too far, rely on yourself and your horse."

World was connected way before Internet.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#59

Post by mcguire »

thomasahle wrote: post #32
wangii wrote: post #18

I don't understand the motivation of the article. Does the author try to justify the Opium War? Or to remind 1+ billion Chinese that the intepretation of history always subject to rulers' agenda, which is clearly stated in Chinese textbook? To show off his not-so-sharp observation to his readers? Or, to warn USA not to abandon the free trade principle?

What about giving the readers a better understanding of how China sees the West? These things can be complicated, and pointing out some of the forming events can be very helpful.

Some Chinese people are still cranky about the Opium Wars, some Irish folks still talk about the 800 year occupation, some Native Americans are still miffed about the whole killing and taking stuff thing.

It may be news to some millennials in the tech industry, but the past isn't prologue. It isn't even past.

Re: The Opium Wars Still Shape China’s View of the West

#60

Post by mcguire »

realPubkey wrote: post #13

This reminds me of the articles saying that germans like to use cash because of the inflation 100y ago. It's just not true and likely being written by someone who has never asked a single german/chinese.

One would have thought you wouldn't want to use cash after inflation?
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