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Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

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Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#121
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple would be held liable if someone uses Telegram to coordinate a terrorist attack or if it's used for human trafficking or whatever highly illegal activity it could be used for. Potentially both in the court of law and the court of public opinion; the latter Apple has no control over. It's just not worth it financially for Apple to assume that liability.

Are you sure? ISIS has been coordinating operations and attacks via Telegram for its entire existence, and I don't see a lot of Apple backlash in either of your courts. (Rightly, I believe. Would you go after HTC or Sprint for a phone being used as a detonator?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–Apple_encryption_dispute

Apple got sued for encryption-related reasons. In theory these types of lawsuit don't stop after one time.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#122
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? ISIS has been coordinating operations and attacks via Telegram for its entire existence, and I don't see a lot of Apple backlash in either of your courts. (Rightly, I believe. Would you go after HTC or Sprint for a phone being used as a detonator?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–Apple_encryption_dispute Apple got sued for encryption-related reasons. In theory these types of lawsuit don't stop after one time.

[deleted]

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#123
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple would be held liable if someone uses Telegram to coordinate a terrorist attack or if it's used for human trafficking or whatever highly illegal activity it could be used for. Potentially both in the court of law and the court of public opinion; the latter Apple has no control over. It's just not worth it financially for Apple to assume that liability.

Should they pull their Messages app for the same reason? How about any ios email clients?

Maybe?

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#124
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? ISIS has been coordinating operations and attacks via Telegram for its entire existence, and I don't see a lot of Apple backlash in either of your courts. (Rightly, I believe. Would you go after HTC or Sprint for a phone being used as a detonator?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–Apple_encryption_dispute Apple got sued for encryption-related reasons. In theory these types of lawsuit don't stop after one time.

Apple was not sued, and that case is irrelevant to your point.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#125
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple would be held liable if someone uses Telegram to coordinate a terrorist attack or if it's used for human trafficking or whatever highly illegal activity it could be used for. Potentially both in the court of law and the court of public opinion; the latter Apple has no control over. It's just not worth it financially for Apple to assume that liability.

If this was a problem then Whatsapp and every other secure chat app should be banned as well.

I think that's not unlikely or at least, it may be necessary for apps to remove that component from the apps.

Anytime you submit an app to the App Store you have to check a box that asks if you're complying with all necessary encryption export laws. In theory, those laws could change in the future and they just simply won't let you publish apps using strong encryption.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#126
post #120
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worded that poorly and have edited the OP to reflect that. I was referring to the recently re-discovered paper about group chats (e.g. https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2018/01/11/whatsapp-signal-g... paper here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/713.pdf )

> “The good news is that in Signal the attack is very difficult to execute,” Green noted. “The reason is that in order to add someone to your group, I need to know the group ID. Since the group ID is a random 128-bit number (and is never revealed to non-group-members or even the server) that pretty much blocks the attack. The main exception to this is former group members, who already know the group ID — and can now…

It absolutely is! Which is why I felt like it was important to bring more attention to the much lesser security stance of others in the space.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#127
I still see the original Telegram app on Apple’s AppStore. I’ve been using Telegram app for a couple of months and it matches the same app I have installed. I don’t like waving the “Fake News” flag prematurely, but this seems like an appropriate time to start waving it.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#128
post #65

Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten recently, I feel it's unethical to let a Telegram post pass without a reminder that they don't even bother to encrypt group chats, and that there is still no proof whatsoever that their protocol is secure.

> Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten about security flaws Sorry, what? Can you show me where Signal has been implicated in flaws? There are some stories about security agencies bypassing Signal, but that is true on any hardware platform you didn't wire-wrap yourself.

Just read the OMEMO audit which, by necessity, re-audited the Signal /protocol/:

https://conversations.im/omemo/audit.pdf

Tells you everything you want to know about Signal. Or read the secushare comparison page:

http://secushare.org/comparison

Here, some choice quotes from the OMEMO audit that pertain to the Signal protocol:

"Metadata

The protocol leaks metadata about who is communicating with whom and how much they are communicating. Alice’s request for the server cache leaks to the server that she wants to start a conversation with Bob, as does the PreKeySignalMessage. The plaintext message counters that are included in each SignalMessage make it possible to track the rest of the conversation. Unlike the ratchet used in the Signal Protocol, the regular variant of the Double Ratchet [24] also encrypts the message headers, which would make it possible to avoid tracking of the conversation. It would only make sense to implement this if this information is not leaked already in the transport layer."

"Message authentication

Messages are authenticated by the randomized key, which protects the message integrity from outsiders. However, anyone with access to the key can alter the message, which includes a malicious device. There are a few possible mitigations, each with their advantages and disadvantages. A possible solution would be to authenticate inside the Signal session. By authenticating the payload with the tag of the SignalMessage, the full message is authenticated in such a way that no other device can compromise the integrity. The ciphertext (and not the plaintext) of the payload message should be authenticated, so that the MAC-then-encrypt pattern is applied.8 This solution increases the computational load on the sender side, because the payload needs to be authenticated more than once. When the ciphertext is added as authenticated additional data (AAD) of the Signal message, it would reduce the message size slightly, because no authentication tag is required on the payload. The payload encryption method should then be simplified to a non-authenticated block cipher mode. It will also require some alterations on the Signal library, as the current implementation does not allow the library user to add their own AAD. The payload can also be authenticated by including a hash of the payload ciphertext in the SignalMessage plaintext (and therefore the corresponding encrypted hash in the SignalMessage ciphertext). This would not require changes to the Signal library, but it would increase the size of each element. This solution is less elegant than the previous, as the hash of the payload ciphertext is sent encrypted, even though the recipient can compute this value themselves. By authenticating a list of all recipient device ids in the tag of the SignalMessage, Bob has a guarantee about which devices Alice has sent the message to. Bob’s client might provide him with a warning if that list includes untrusted devices. This protects him against the specific attack described above, but the protocol remains vulnerable if one of the devices gets compromised by another attack. This solution can be combined with the above solution of authenticating the payload ciphertext with the SignalMessage ciphertext or tag."

"Device linkage

There is no cryptographic link between identities and device keys. In other words, Eve can attach her own device identity key as if it is a resource belonging to Bob and fool Alice into adding it. There is a solution: each device could sign a certificate on each device identity key of the same user. While Eve might fool Alice into thinking that Bob has another device, it is highly unlikely that Bob is tricked into accepting another device as his own. Device identity keys with a certificates that was signed by an already accepted device of the same user could be accepted automatically. In order to account for compromised devices, users must have the ability to revoke certificates and certificates should have a finite lifetime. This solution can be extended into a full-blown public key infrastructure (PKI) or web of trust, but I recommend to keep that out of the scope of the OMEMO specification (although compatibility with such systems could be taken into account when updating the OMEMO specification)."

Granted, most of these come down to issues solvable in UX - but Signal doesn't. And the deceptive UX like the disappearing messages (which, for obvious reasons, can't expire on the server and get synced [and subsequently deleted from the client] until the last device has it), because the Signal developers only consider it a "convenience feature" (a fact which they offhandedly communicated in their blog, but think about it, how many users actually read that?), the whole phone number binding, and... Ugh. Just ugh. I don't wanna continue because Signal nauseates me. It's not that it's bad, it's not, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the 'moral panic' about crypto is a far more likely political reason. Nobody had heard of Telegram before, now it is where you go to find out what coin is going to the moon next. Yesterday Facebook took down all crypto-gambling adverts. There is a duty of care to not be the company responsible for making your customers crypto bag-holders. The gig is up with crypto in its current scam incarnation.

>> There is a duty of care to not be the company responsible for making your customers crypto bag-holders. Are you saying that Facebook is responsible to make decisions for us - because all it takes is one advertisement to override the average human's discipline and self control?

If Facebook didn't have the power to affect the decisions of their users they wouldn't have a business.

The advertisements are just what they sell. As the platform owners, they can do a lot more in terms of information curation.

Re: Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

#130
post #115

There may be political motive to this. Why is Telegram X issued by "Telegram Messenger LLP" while the original Telegram is issued by "Telegram LLC"? Telegram LLC, which issues the original Telegram app on the App Store has been undergoing litigation with regards to its ownership. It is based out of Russia and a company called UCP with Krelim ties who 'bought' VKontakte has been suing Durov for full Telegram ownership…

Apple would be held liable if someone uses Telegram to coordinate a terrorist attack or if it's used for human trafficking or whatever highly illegal activity it could be used for. Potentially both in the court of law and the court of public opinion; the latter Apple has no control over. It's just not worth it financially for Apple to assume that liability.

So, to carry your argument to a slightly (but only slightly) more extreme version, doesn't that mean that postal mail could be held liable if someone coordinated a terrorist attack by letter?

Think about what you're suggesting.

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