Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person • Hacker News Board

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#141

Post by KingMob » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

SaintGhurka wrote: post #113

jopsen wrote: post #16

Why not clean house? At this point I can't imagine the local community, particularly minorities, have any trust in the authorities. Isn't that failure, why not train a new police force with new uniforms and then phase out the old?

Since the Freddie Gray case in 2015 and the subsequent riots, Baltimore and its police force have undergone significant reforms. The murder rate is up 50% since then for the third year in a row. Dropping the hammer on police may sound like it would be satisfying, but if I lived in a place where the community suddenly decided to cast the whole police force as villains, I'd move my family out for fear of the spike in c…

Do you have any links showing a connection between police criticism and increasing murder rates in Baltimore?

Or is your argument that police brutality and dirty methods are necessary to keep minorities in line?

Is this like Minority Report's Pre-Crime division, where the Baltimore PD just knows these kids are gonna commit murders when they grow up, so it's better to plant guns on them and remove them now?

Also, "vilification of police" has never been "fashionable"; it's arisen for decades in response to police crimes, and will continue until we restructure wholesale how PDs work.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#142

Post by coolso » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #39

nukeop wrote: post #18

This isn't a problem with cops, or blacks, or whites, or anything like that. This is a problem with the USA. In some countries the entire police force of the country combined uses fewer bullets per year than the average police officer in the States. The homicide rates can be 40 times smaller in European countries than there. There's just something fundamentally wrong with that country and it would be a mistake to att…

It's insane seeing videos of routine traffic stops in the US where both officers leap from their vehicle with guns drawn, ready to escalate the situation at the slightest provocation. Future, more civilized, societies will one day study the ruins of America with bafflement. Like, what were they thinking? Was this what liberty was to them?

> It's insane seeing videos of routine traffic stops in the US where both officers leap from their vehicle with guns drawn, ready to escalate the situation at the slightest provocation.

Routine traffic stops, or felony traffic stops? I've never heard of that happening for the former, although there may be a few examples out there, but it's far from the norm. But that is indeed normal for a felony traffic stop, like when pulling over a stolen car, or after chasing a suspect from the scene of a crime, or if the car waited a really long time to pull over, or if an outstanding warrant was found when they ran the plates.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#143

Post by abandonliberty » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #40

Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero consequence for those responsible. Those with authority granted by the public should have HIGHER accountability and more severe consequences, not be able to subvert them altogether. It's not difficult to imagine the level of misconduct that is likely occurring…

I agree with you in an ideal world. These concepts are obvious. Unfortunately, we don't see this implemented so I'm pretty sure that it isn't our timeline.

The police are not here to protect you, but to ensure the functioning of society. This isn't pessimism; it's a fact of legal precedent - they have no obligation to protect any citizen [0].

Justice only happens when the crime unpunished would lead to undesirable destabilization of society. Sexual harassment was rampant in Hollywood for decades, only now that it threatens stability does it receive attention.

Our ideals of justice and freedom only but tools and illusions to keep the gears of society turning.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#144

Post by krapp » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

talldan wrote: post #134

krapp wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same rationale used to blame police as a whole for the corruption of a few is also used to justify the attitudes of the police presented in this article, on the basis that any random black individual is more likely to be violent or prone to criminal activity. That the police and black people are not precisely the same sort of entity is irrelevant.

Just because you can't see the difference, it doesn't make it irrelevant. By the way - the law agrees with me. Please read about police accountability: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_accountability "The 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act authorized the United States Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division to bring civil ("pattern or practice") suits against local law enforcement agencies,…

>Now apply your logic to black people, and you'll find that your views are worrying.

I'm assuming based on your comments here and elsewhere in this thread that you're being purposely obtuse, and therefore I'm choosing not to engage with you further.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#145

Post by bluesroo » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

nukeop wrote: post #85

mclightning wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 - In most european countries, you are not allowed to carry weapons. 2 - European countries are very small in population in comparison to US.

That is the point. It looks like outlawing firearms tends to reduce overall gun-related fatalities. Who knew? Apparently USA has some catching up to do.

It's impossible to understate how much your comment has oversimplified the gun debate in the US.

However, let's assume that the government has ideologically came to the same conclusion you've made and drafted a new constitutional amendment which outlawed gun ownership. There are incredible practical issues with actually enforcing it. How do you expect to collect 300 million firearms[1]? What do you do with 300M firearms once you have them?

There are also high rate of illegal (and therefor untracked) gun ownership in gang controlled areas. How do you expect people to feel about being disarmed when they live in an area surrounded by violent, illegal gun owners who haven't been disarmed?

What about the people who are gun collectors? Who may have spent their entire lives tracking down and collecting antique guns? Who's personal wealth may be largely in gun assets? Does the government pay them for each gun? Who the hell is going to trust the government to set a fair price for these guns? How much would it cost to buy 300 million gun and all of the related accessories and ammunition?

I'm barely scratching the surface here and this is assuming that Congress has already passed a constitutional amendment! Banning guns in the United States will never happen, because before any of these practical implications become relevant a new amendment needs to be passed in order to override what our founding fathers and a lot of the country see as the second most important amendment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#146

Post by krapp » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #126

krapp wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no reason to be polite about this. There is - the tone of the article affects the tone of the thread. Hacker News is supposed to be about intellectually gratifying discussion, but an article whose purpose is to spark outrage results in comments full of invective and tedious boilerplate. Cathartic for people who want to rant about Americans and guns and ACAB... but we've already been there and done that and r…

> Hacker News is supposed to be about intellectually gratifying discussion You're confusing "intellectually gratifying" with "apathy".

>You're confusing "intellectually gratifying" with "apathy".

You're confusing endorphin hooks and virtue signalling with action. Being outraged on an internet forum doesn't lead to progress against police corruption.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#147

Post by talldan » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #144

talldan wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can't see the difference, it doesn't make it irrelevant. By the way - the law agrees with me. Please read about police accountability: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_accountability "The 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act authorized the United States Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division to bring civil ("pattern or practice") suits against local law enforcement agencies,…

>Now apply your logic to black people, and you'll find that your views are worrying. I'm assuming based on your comments here and elsewhere in this thread that you're being purposely obtuse, and therefore I'm choosing not to engage with you further.

That's fine. I don't really understand why you have an issue with concepts like zero tolerance for corruption, police reform, collective responsibility, police accountability.

They are fairly commonly held opinions–that individual actions can destroy trust in an organisation, and that passiveness or tolerance within an organisation of such actions is equally as damaging.

I also think I've made fairly strong points about why your comparison is, in my opinion, incorrect. Not sure I'm being obtuse, but sorry if you think that is the case.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#148

Post by nukeop » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

bluesroo wrote: post #145

nukeop wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the point. It looks like outlawing firearms tends to reduce overall gun-related fatalities. Who knew? Apparently USA has some catching up to do.

It's impossible to understate how much your comment has oversimplified the gun debate in the US. However, let's assume that the government has ideologically came to the same conclusion you've made and drafted a new constitutional amendment which outlawed gun ownership. There are incredible practical issues with actually enforcing it. How do you expect to collect 300 million firearms[1]? What do you do with 300M firea…

The second most important amendment that is responsible for thousands of deaths each year. Sure, the ban will never happen, that's why the USA will just have to deal with an enormous toll of completely avoidable deaths because of theoretical technical difficulties of outlawing such outdated and dangerous concept as civilian firearm ownership.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#149

Post by alexwilde » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #40

Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero consequence for those responsible. Those with authority granted by the public should have HIGHER accountability and more severe consequences, not be able to subvert them altogether. It's not difficult to imagine the level of misconduct that is likely occurring…

I would add Education to the forefront of accountability. Police officer careers require no more education than a high school diploma/GED and the police academy, which is roughly 27 weeks. Imagine if being a police officer meant having a deep understanding of ethics, psychology (not just tactics) and law.

Stop accepting any physically fit hothead off the street because they can be trained into the role. Lastly, as a citizen, be willing to pay more in taxes knowing that the person who pulled you over cares, is qualified, and will not shoot you and try to cover it up.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#150

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

alexwilde wrote: post #149

ralusek wrote: post #40

Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero consequence for those responsible. Those with authority granted by the public should have HIGHER accountability and more severe consequences, not be able to subvert them altogether. It's not difficult to imagine the level of misconduct that is likely occurring…

I would add Education to the forefront of accountability. Police officer careers require no more education than a high school diploma/GED and the police academy, which is roughly 27 weeks. Imagine if being a police officer meant having a deep understanding of ethics, psychology (not just tactics) and law. Stop accepting any physically fit hothead off the street because they can be trained into the role. Lastly, as a…

Police have also gained the hard-fought-in-court prerogative to screen candidates on the basis of intelligence, excluding anyone unusual in any direction. It creates a monoculture as opposed to an ecology of diverse intellectualism.