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Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

sparkfun.com

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Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#51

Post by imtringued »

hobofan wrote: post #37
gh02t wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but I think there is a fundamental difference here. A 3D printer enables you to do things you can't do otherwise (fabricate custom mechanical parts). A pick-and-place enables you to do stuff you can already do with tweezers except in the most extreme cases. And likely do it faster than with a pick-and-place, because they require quite a lot of work to configure. Edit: a good analogy is a homebrewer putting caps…

> And likely do it faster than with a pick-and-place, because they require quite a lot of work to configure. So lets figure out ways to bring down the amount of work required to configure it! ;)

A "reel" library (tape library) is going to be very expensive.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#52

Post by jcims »

vonnieda wrote: post #9
zdw wrote: post #2

Interesting that for such an inexpensive but specialized hardware device it still has a "phone home on boot" feature. Given what this device does compared to a 3d printer (xyz axis movement, suction head, part reel incrementer, webcam + identification software), it seems like a sufficiently motivated hobbyist could come up with something passably similar in the same price ballpark.

I'm the founder/author of OpenPnP, which exists to do exactly this. I've been working on the project for about 6 years now and I'm happy to say that lots of hobbyists, small companies, maker spaces, etc. have built and are running OpenPnP based pick and place machines. It's a harder problem than it seems, as I've found out over the past 6 years. While the basics are quite similar to a 3D printer, PnP has some unique…

Have you seen the odrive motor controller project?

https://odriverobotics.com/

Looks interesting (to me anyway) for this type of project. I can’t tell if the precision you need for PnP is there yet, but it looks like the speed is.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#53

Post by StavrosK »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #33
jotux wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macrofab(macrofab.com) is pretty close to this, as is SeeedStudio (SeeedStudio.io).

Seeed is wonderful. I’ve run over $80k of boards through them and while I have experienced one big error in a build they worked with me to fix it and in general they have wonderful service considering I’m one person working out of my apartment. Bigger shops charge way more or don’t work with me, and smaller shops don’t do as much as Seeed does.

Can you tell me some details on what exactly they do? I've designed and ordered my own PCBs from DirtyPCBs (recommended, I love them) but I've only assembled them myself (I only needed one or two pieces) and I have no idea how I would scale that to larger production.

Can you tell me what the basic steps are? Pricing information would be appreciated!

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#54

Post by thesmok »

mng2 wrote: post #31
CamperBob2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not gonna be able to pick-and-place anything with hundreds/thousands of parts at a hobby price point. LitePlacer is almost there. IMHO the key is recognizing that production-oriented machines need to be fast, while hobbyist/small-shop prototyping machines don't. If I need to stuff a complex prototype board with 500 parts, I literally don't care if it takes all day and all night as long as I don't have to do it…

Agreed. Being a human pick and place for anything more than low tens of parts is incredibly unfun, and paying someone to manufacture one or two doesn't really make sense. I don't care if it takes a few days, I'd rather not be sitting for hours wearing down my fine motor skills and eyesight.

If it takes more than an hour to place the components, your solder paste will likely flow all over the board and it will be pointless to reflow it.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#55

Post by hoopladler »

iliis wrote: post #47
jabl wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've soldered literally thousands of through-hole boards and SMT is much faster and easier to do by hand. Sorry for going off-topic, but do hobbyists actually solder SMT's manually nowadays? Or does everyone use some kind of off-the-shelf/DIY reflow oven? And if so, are stencils obligatory or is it feasible to just apply paste manually? I've been thinking of getting back (or well, properly starting if you will) my…

We mainly do SMT at our hackerspace, as it is really is fast and easy to do by hand using a hot-air gun (e.g. [1]). Use a syringe to deposit solder paste (we have one which uses compressed air, very convenient! Something like [2]) and a binocular to see what you're doing and you will be golden. [1] http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int998-smd-rework-station-hot-air-... [2] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/220V-AD-982-Semi-Aut…

How does this compare to doing it with a normal soldering iron? I just ordered a bunch of surface-mount components - just because they were so much cheaper, but I haven't really got any notion about good approaches yet.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#56

Post by stephen_g »

rkangel wrote: post #48
jmrobles wrote: post #43

Do these machines solder the component? Or is it then necessary to put the PCBs in the oven? thnks!

The process for industrial assembly is: Put solder on the pads. This can be done with a solder mask - a thin sheet of metal with holes cut where the pads are. Solder paste is scraped over it and then the mask is lifted off, leaving solder on the pads. Place components. This can be done manually or with the pick and place machines described here. The solder paste is sticky so there is something to hold the components…

Just a note - the solder mask is actually part of the PCB, in the past often green but now all sorts of colours. It covers up the tracks and copper fills etc. that you don’t want solder on.

What you’re referring to in the first paragraph is just called a stencil.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#57

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jabl wrote: post #41
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. Also remember that placing parts is only one step of the process. If you're going to automate assembly by purchasing a P&P, you should also be ready to do high-volume stenciling and have a fast oven. In any case, the time spent aligning the machine and setting up reels can be a significant fraction of the time to just place parts manually. In som…

> I've soldered literally thousands of through-hole boards and SMT is much faster and easier to do by hand. Sorry for going off-topic, but do hobbyists actually solder SMT's manually nowadays? Or does everyone use some kind of off-the-shelf/DIY reflow oven? And if so, are stencils obligatory or is it feasible to just apply paste manually? I've been thinking of getting back (or well, properly starting if you will) my…

I do have a side business building custom electronics, but I think I still qualify as hobbyist :-)

I do both: for small fixes I solder by hand. Complete boards I usually use an old toaster oven, but often if the boards are really small, I use a soldering iron. I try not to go below 0805, but 0603 isn't hard.

I typically won't get a stencil for custom one-off jobs since they tend to be small and ordering them introduces delay. When I do, I use oshstencils.com. Had great luck with them and they are very price competitive.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#58

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

hoopladler wrote: post #55
iliis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We mainly do SMT at our hackerspace, as it is really is fast and easy to do by hand using a hot-air gun (e.g. [1]). Use a syringe to deposit solder paste (we have one which uses compressed air, very convenient! Something like [2]) and a binocular to see what you're doing and you will be golden. [1] http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int998-smd-rework-station-hot-air-... [2] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/220V-AD-982-Semi-Aut…

How does this compare to doing it with a normal soldering iron? I just ordered a bunch of surface-mount components - just because they were so much cheaper, but I haven't really got any notion about good approaches yet.

I'd recommend that a beginner go with the iron. It's all too easy to overheat components with a hot air gun, unless you have one with excellent temperature control. Even then, you need to be aware of accidentally desoldering nearby components.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#59

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

marshray wrote: post #16
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. Also remember that placing parts is only one step of the process. If you're going to automate assembly by purchasing a P&P, you should also be ready to do high-volume stenciling and have a fast oven. In any case, the time spent aligning the machine and setting up reels can be a significant fraction of the time to just place parts manually. In som…

> Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. But isn't this just begging the question? If hobbyists can make use of it, then by definition it's a hobbyist venture. Bringing down size, cost, and complexity is exactly the path by which so much has become available to hobbyists these days. Wasn't that long ago that a laser cutter, heaven forbid a 3d printer, was for pro shops only.

Not really.

The tool isn't the issue. If a hobbyist wants to play with a Pick & Place, go for it.

My point was that the typical hobbyist isn't going to be manufacturing 1,000 units of anything, no matter how cheap is to do. Once you get into those numbers, it's far more likely to be a (small) business venture.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#60

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jstanley wrote: post #27
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but if you can buy it for the same price it would cost to build, why bother building? Time has its own costs too.

Because you don't want it to phone home on every boot.

I can't thing of any (realistic) reason for a P&P machine to be connected to the internet.
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