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A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

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Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#101

Post by krzat »

billfruit wrote: post #13
spunker540 wrote: post #6

It’s amazing how quickly our Russian allies turned into our Cold War enemies at the end of WWII. I’ve heard a lot of blame on both sides, the US stockpiling arms, McCarthyism fanning the flames. But the end of this story drives home just how brutal Russia was. A wwii hero who not only deliberately went to Auschwitz for three years, organized prisoners, compiled intelligence reports, then escaped and fought bravely fo…

We should also be remembering that large number of Russians suffered in the Holocaust, by some accounts more Soviet citizens were killed in the Holocaust than Jews.

It is tragic but I think Stalin is responsible for most of these deaths.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#102

Post by dang »

batushka2 wrote: post #3
pmoriarty wrote: post #2

Some other good articles on Pilecki: [1] [2] Of his imprisonment under the Soviets he told his wife: "I cannot live. They killed me. Because compared to them Auschwitz was just a trifle." [1] - http://www.poloniainstitute.net/witold-pilecki-bravery-beyon... [2] - https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/story-of-the-m...

Yes, soviet (actually Russian) atrocities were far worse, yet we have to struggle every day to put equals sign between NAZI and Soviets

Please keep nationalistic flamewar off HN. This is a highly international community and the last thing we need is old regional resentments breaking out all over the place.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#103

Post by yeukhon »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #59
code_duck wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to assume that a certain percentage of the soldiers would be or already have been rapists in civilian life, and now they perceive great opportunity in that regard. Edit - is this controversial? It’s simply a fact that some men do that, throughout history, in almost all cultures, hence the entire topic... Sometimes units of soldiers are even formed from criminals.

The assumption seems correct, but hardly significant in explaining the scale of the phenomenon.

It is probably insignificant for most wars, but it isn't uncommon in history. For example, throughout ancient Chinese history, it was common for bandits to serve in army either after they had surrendered or when government paid them to fight (mostly because these bandits knew the terrain well and had strong combat experience). Many of the bandits were rapists and killers, as one would expect.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#104

Post by mannykannot »

badpun wrote: post #30
pmyteh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was unambiguously better if you lived in Great Britain or other places which were at war with Germany but not occupied post-war by the Soviets.

The Soviets were quite open about aiming for world conquest, starting with Europe. They tried it first in 1920, but Poland miraculously defeated them. WWII was another attempt (had Hitler not attacked first, Stalin would probably just attack Germany within a short period of time) - first Poland and Germany, then France, Spain, Italy, UK etc. It only stopped at Poland and Eastern Germany that time because of strong ba…

While Stalin might have wished to invade Germany in 1941 or 42, he was in no position to do so, having recently liquidated most of the Red Army's leadership.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#105

Post by blindwatchmaker »

badpun wrote: post #30
pmyteh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was unambiguously better if you lived in Great Britain or other places which were at war with Germany but not occupied post-war by the Soviets.

The Soviets were quite open about aiming for world conquest, starting with Europe. They tried it first in 1920, but Poland miraculously defeated them. WWII was another attempt (had Hitler not attacked first, Stalin would probably just attack Germany within a short period of time) - first Poland and Germany, then France, Spain, Italy, UK etc. It only stopped at Poland and Eastern Germany that time because of strong ba…

The Soviets were not bent on world conquest, but on securing a ring of buffer states around them as security for their country. Witness Stalin's betrayal of the communists in Greece as horse trading for influence elsewhere. Stalin's socialism in one country policy set against exporting revolution was in fact a huge point of contention with other factions of the Bolsheviks.

While the Soviets did harbour imperial ambitions against neighbouring states (Poland, Finland), this:

> had Hitler not attacked first, Stalin would probably just attack Germany within a short period of time

is blatantly false, and insultingly so given the millions of Soviet citizens who paid a bloody price for Stalin's total lack of readiness at the German border or mobilization against the Nazis.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#106

Post by trs80 »

spunker540 wrote: post #6

It’s amazing how quickly our Russian allies turned into our Cold War enemies at the end of WWII. I’ve heard a lot of blame on both sides, the US stockpiling arms, McCarthyism fanning the flames. But the end of this story drives home just how brutal Russia was. A wwii hero who not only deliberately went to Auschwitz for three years, organized prisoners, compiled intelligence reports, then escaped and fought bravely fo…

At least 30 million Russians died under communism. The exact number will never be known. It is more probable that he would have died there.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#107

Post by lostlogin »

rbanffy wrote: post #70
bobthechef wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fallacious thinking. Even if we assumes that nothing could be done to stop the Soviets (and that is debatable: some have argued that the US was fully capable of pushing back against Soviet domination in the eastern Bloc, but instead caved in to Soviet demands), the result was a nasty occupation by the Soviets. "No alternative" does not mean it wasn't objectively bad. We're not talking about running out of your…

Would the Allies stand a chance if the Soviets didn't help? Would the Allies stand a chance if the Soviets allied with the Axis?

Yes and then no (or not without US help).

The British empire outproduced, manufactured, mined etc the Germans for basically the entire war. The question is more about why it took so long for the allies to get the upper hand.

The idea of ‘the plucky underdog’ is a myth, Britain was very much a superpower with a massive, resource rich empire behind it.

https://www.amazon.de/Britains-War-Machine-Weapons-Resources...

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#108

Post by lostlogin »

tszymczyszyn wrote: post #24
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bone of contention and a heavily discussed subject, because the world is not a black-and-white place. The Red Army was indeed a savior. It is thanks to those masses of poor soldiers, of which eight millions died, that the horror of WWII last only five years or so. All Europe and all world indeed should be grateful to them. On the other hand, there was the Stalinist regime, ruthless rule, killing one's own p…

It is true that Russians helped in ending WWII but as others pointed they were also one of the initial aggressors and allies of the Reich. If not for that the war might as well end faster.

How? The invasion of Russia lead to the meat grinder that destroyed Germany. How would the allies have turned Germany without the Russians?

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#109

Post by rsync »

ransom1538 wrote: post #48
zipwitch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure anecdote and likely shaded by the Cold War, but I remember my WWII veteran grandfather (European theater) telling me how after the war he had talked to fellow US and British officers responsible for turning POWs over to the Soviets. (I don't recall if he said whether they were the soliders of Axis powers being turned over to the Russians under some agreement, or soldiers from Russia or from Soviet occupied count…

If you were a German with an armpit tattoo [i] and were taken by the Russians death was certain. The allies would routinely hand over these men to the Russians to avoid an entire war crime trial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_blood_group_tattoo

"If you were a German with an armpit tattoo [1] and were taken by the Russians death was certain."

I can think of worse heuristics[1] to use for deciding "whom should we kill".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_blood_group_tattoo

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#110

Post by yakitori »

yeukhon wrote: post #27
ransom1538 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Americans arrived in Berlin they were quite horrified. Over 100,000 women in Berlin were systemically raped by Russian soliders [i]. As an American/Englishmen witnessing this and ordered not to intervene created hate and disdain for the Russian forces. The American forces had no concept of what the Russian forces endured -- still not an excuse for rape. Eventually generals on the western side began forming plans…

It is so sad that rape is a common war crime in every war since very ancient time. Rape during WW2 was probably one of the biggest crimes after mass genocide. I am familiar with the Japanese’s rape crime but this is the first time I am hearing about this. Allies are no exception. The psychology behind committing such crime is beyond the “sexual urge” excuse.

> Allies are no exception.

Absolutely. As Robert E Lee eloquently said: "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."

In war there is no good. It's just evil. The only difference is between winners and losers.

> The psychology behind committing such crime is beyond the “sexual urge” excuse.

Isn't it innate nature? In the wild, whether it is chimps or lions, you vanquish the males and rape/procreate with the females. For much of human history, rape wasn't a crime. One of the reasons for going to war was for women. Women were considered spoils of war. You can find it in seminal western texts like Iliad or the bible. The entirety of european colonization ( from africa to china ) was mass rape of women. As has been in pretty much all human cultures since we kept records.

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