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My new favorite book of all time

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361–370 of 421 posts

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#361
post #57

I haven't read the book but I wonder.. as a billionaire he clearly stands to gain a lot from spreading a message of optimism and collective progress over the last century presumably to maintain status quo when an equally factual but completely opposite perspective on the world (unprecedented levels of inequality, our global lack of response to climate change, etc.) is also there for us to see. I find it very hard to…

Why is inequality a problem? It seems like what people should care about is how well off they are absolutely , not how well off they are relative to other people. Let me put it this way: if everyone in the human race was so rich that they owned an entire planet full of machines that cater to their every whim, then there might still be people who are "rich" and own thousands of planets . Does that wealth inequality ma…

The problem is that greater relative wealth turns into greater absolute power, a power which preferentially hoards limited resources whether you need them to survive or not.

If everyone was rich enough to own a planet.. but the richest owned all the planets with food on them, then you are screwed the next time a famine happens and they are not.

Besides: the majority of people would be much better off absolutely if there were less inequality given a fixed amount of wealth. So at no point will people not have a reason to consider inequality a problem unless they are wealthier than average.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#362
post #40

Pew research did a survey where it asked 42,000 people in 38 different nations how their day was. Respondents could answer 'particularly good', 'typical', or 'particulary bad'. Nigerians are having the best time, with 73% of respondents saying they were having a particularly good day. In Japan on 11% were having a particularly good day. The outcomes of this pew study correlate inversely with studies that objectively…

If a typical Nigerian faces a calamity every 14 days and a Japanese citizen every 140 days, you will get a much more relieved and appreciative average answer for daily life from the Nigerians to this question. Especially if those who faced a calamity in the last couple of days are less likely to participate in the survey.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#363
Charles Kuralt has an old documentary about the shopping mall. He mourns outdoor shopping downtown, worries about progress, then eventually gives up and announces, "Well, this is the way we live now."

Uh, maybe. Kuralt didn't live to see Amazon. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-retail-debt/

Or if you prefer Randall Munroe, linear extrapolation can be risky. https://www.xkcd.com/605/

Crime, housing prices, and population growth always go up... until they don't.

Mortality rates might be next to zag, who knows: https://www.vox.com/2016/12/8/13875150/life-expectancy-us-dr...

I think Pinker's right. I hope he is. But it's hard to evaluate claims that extend so far beyond human lifespans. The empires in Persia bounced between progressive tolerance and tyrannical repression for stretches of over two hundred years. From Gobleki Tepe's perspective, our entire known history is a blip... too little data for any coherent long run analysis.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#364
post #304
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is perhaps illegal, except in self-defence, but certain people interpret "self-defence" to mean "defence of (national) interests", but also, belt-and-braces, they don't actually declare war any more and claim that what they're doing, killing and maiming people, bombing hospitals, television studios, water purification plants, isn't a "war". Also, Geneva Convention does not apply because the victims are "unlawful…

It still applies. It applies to the weapons we use, how we treat prisoners, and how we treat the injured. Bad things happen, but please don't ever think your solider's are willfully bombing hospitals or killing civilians.

Why not? American soldiers literally bombed an operating Red Crescent hospital.

They've also been caught on film laughing and bragging about killing civilians.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#365
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Options vary. The first option is to admit defeat and adopt Moral Nonrealism. Most of academia and global intelligentsia have done this; Pinker finds them frustrating as fuddy-duddy spoilsports for insisting on logically-sound conclusions. The other option is to adopt Moral Realism (ie, Theism). This won't please Pinker either. I explain more about this at http://liamk.org/is-love-real and in my comment history on th…

Somehow I knew you were going to lean on theism, I should have put that in my comment, oh well. Nuts to that. I live in the real world. The actual action of morality can have no basis except consensus. Biology is morality free as is physics. Even if you insist there's a "pure" moral law somewhere you still have to enforce it or it's a toothless theory. Then to enforce it you really have to get down to brass tacks and…

>The actual action of morality can have no basis except consensus.

If we said this, what we'd be saying is roughly "what a society does in aggregate is based on what the majority of individuals in a society agree to do" (a tautology).

>Biology is morality free as is physics.

Exactly! Moral facts cannot be determined by empirical observation. If you limited yourself to empirical observation ("Empiricism") as you seem to do, you are left with Moral Nonrealism.

>Even if you insist there's a "pure" moral law somewhere you still have to enforce it or it's a toothless theory.

What's in question is "do morals facts exist". You're saying "Alright, if moral facts exist they'd need to be enforced by a society in order to ensure the society complied with them". This is true; but in the same way that the society's acknowledgement that the moral facts exist doesn't change their existence, the society's enforcement of them also doesn't affect if they exist or what they are.

>Then to enforce it you really have to get down to brass tacks and democracy.

Democracy is one way that certain societies have chosen to organise themselves. They are often very effective at enforcing what a society believes to be correct. But this isn't disputed. What humans do –what they believe, what they say, what ethics they choose to conduct themselves by, how they organise with each other to enforce agreed upon norms– and whether these behaviors help them survive or thrive–is not in contention. These are just observations of what humans do (anthropology, etc).

For Ben Shapiro's explanation, you can see the video starting at 45:44 through 59:20. As he puts it, "you don't get to burn down my house and then use the planks from my house to build your own philosophy". Here's a link to just that section: https://www.youtube.com/embed/s9IwamztdqA?start=2744&end=356...

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#366

" War is illegal. This idea seems obvious. But before the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no institution had the power to stop countries from going to war with each other. Although there have been some exceptions, the threat of international sanctions and intervention has proven to be an effective deterrent to wars between nations." I would argue that something else that happened in 1945 has been a much bigge…

And any direct war that happened after 1945, had one belligerent that did not possess nuclear weapons, who turned out to be loser. That's the reason victor decided to wage war against him, citing some puny reason for the aggression.

Do you really think the Americans "won" Iraq or Afghanistan? 15+ years of war, many trillions of dollars spent, nearly a million civilian casualties in Iraq, and what is there to show for it?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#367
post #219

Pinker wants to establish metrics to evaluate the state of the world. Once he establishes the metrics, he wants to show that the state of the world is improving over time. Showing improvement by these metrics, he wants us to celebrate this. This is easy to appreciate. He is right. There really are large differences in living and these differences are commonly experienced as better. There is real cause for celebration…

> if all 7 billion people expressed that they believe "murder is wrong" this would not establish that murder is wrong. How else do you propose we establish morality if not by consensus?

> How else do you propose we establish morality if not by consensus?

Just accept that whether or not morality has any universal external existence, neither that existence nor, a fortiori, its actual content can actually be objectively established.

Admittedly, that allows less opportunity for definitive point-scoring, but I'm willing to accept that point-scoring isn't the central purpose of life.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#368
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artificial? As opposed to the natural mechanic that paints billboards with coca cola commercials, or undercut things like tap water in terms of price through hostile negotiations for water rights?

The phrase he used was "artificially protect". This would be in comparison to allowing culture to change over time naturally.

Yes, but what is "natural change", and how does it relate to commercial interest? Or indeed overt colonialism?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author covers that. (More details and argument for why he thinks that is in his book) https://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-ab... The explanation for the decline of violence in the second half of the 20th century is obvious: The bomb. The theory of the Nuclear Peace is evaluated in chapter 5, pp. 268–278. I think it’s unlikely. World War II proved that conventional warfare was already unthinka…

> Finally, the Nuclear Peace theory can’t explain why non-nuclear powers have avoided war, too—why Canada and Spain, for example, never escalated their dispute over flatfish to a shooting war. Frankly, this looks to me like Pinker is reasoning from a provably false premise. Non-nuclear powers haven't avoided war. The Congo War killed ~4 million people, including 300,000+ via direct killings. The Yugoslav Wars killed…

Pinker has been repeatedly criticized for his focus on combat deaths, and with good reason. The technological advances of war have shifted the balance of casualties from combatants to civilians, and increased the fat-tail risk of escalating conflicts. This is another iteration of the same.

This is my main reservation about the Better Angels thesis: we may be replacing regular threats of (relatively)limited scope with existential threats. It seems like we are building a complex ratchet mechanism made up of entangled components. Many of these threats don't actually disappear, but are held in abeyance by continual technological progress, resource substitution, or our own fears of upsetting the ratchet.

I think Pinkerian thought is strong when it argues that we are currently in a much better time than, say, the Plagues of Justinian, where war, disease, and famine affected a huge part of the western hemisphere. But I wonder if our present condition is more fragile than our large population and social/technological advancement would lead us to believe.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people complain about their culture disappearing, and being replaced by the universal culture (usually, but wrongly, called "Western culture" or "American culture"). It's one of the many factors contributing to the present rise of nationalism in Europe. Personally, I don't mind the universal culture. But then, I'm just comfortable in it; many people are not, and cling to their local traditions.

> usually, but wrongly, called "Western culture" or "American culture" Usually, but not wrongly. Not only because bona fide American culture (even morals and soapiness) are the majority of what's replacing local cultures, but also because the little of regional cultures that becomes international does so after it passes from an American filter/lens. > Personally, I don't mind the universal culture. But then, I'm just…

Previously, human groups were like two separate containers, one containing coffee and one containing milk. Now, through technological advancements and many other developments, they have been brought together into a single cup. The laws of physics demand that the two liquids in the cup combine into a homogeneous mixture.

This is an imperfect metaphor -- in reality, the separate containers have only been partially brought together, and human individuals are more complex than beverage molecules. But I think the idea expresses noteworthy amounts of truth.

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