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My new favorite book of all time

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Re: My new favorite book of all time

#251
post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

I agree that it's not clear that conflict is being better managed overtime. However, there is a lot of merit acknowledging the reduction in violence. There is so much fear for physical violence that there has been a significant reduction in kids walking home from school or playing outside by themselves. It would be better to acknowledge how physically safe we are regardless of what happens in the court systems.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#252
post #233
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinker is much more nefarious (and you can know that by going to his talks, as I have, where he's more loose-tongued than in his books). He places such emphasis on the fact that the world is getting better as a rebuttal to "complainers" and political activists . The problem is not with his premise but with his conclusion. The world has been getting better (to the extent that it has) because people complain and are di…

What problem do people in this conversation have distinguishing current state from current rate? Complain that things are bad and fight to improve them? Sure. Complain that things are getting worse over time? It's false in a global sense, and in most specific senses too.

But this is precisely where Pinker is wrong. Political change is not meant to be a scientific study. It is a movement towards a goal based on values.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#253
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but even by that definition, it's not the UN that has made it illegal. The UN is pretty toothless. I mean, yes, they have peacekeeping forces. Those forces are not keeping the peace by force. In fact, there have been times when they have stood aside while one side violated the peace, because the UN force's rules of engagement didn't allow them to use force to prevent one side from starting the war back up.

It can be pretty toothless, but the mere fact that it exists as a platform for discussion, expression if views and the firmation if consensus is a huge improvement compared to nothing. I think the experience nations get of working together on issues is also pretty valuable.

AnimalMuppet isn't making a general criticism of the UN, he's arguing that the UN isn't responsible for war being illegal under dfmooreqqq's operational definition.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#254
post #11

I read Pinker's previous book, "The Better Angels of Our Nature," and found it eye-opening; it changed the way I perceived the world. Highly recommended. (Here's a review: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/books/review/the-better-an... ) This book, his latest one, is now an automatic buy for me.

So torn. I'm generally a Pinker fan, but almost detest Peter Singer's thought to the core. Singer recommending that book makes me really second guess the recommendation. But I respect Bill Gates immensely too. Maybe the idea that Pinker could write a book so loved by both Gates and Singer is a testament to how good it is?

Or perhaps you have an unjustified ill-informed hatred of Singer, not shared by Gates or Pinker.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#255

" War is illegal. This idea seems obvious. But before the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no institution had the power to stop countries from going to war with each other. Although there have been some exceptions, the threat of international sanctions and intervention has proven to be an effective deterrent to wars between nations." I would argue that something else that happened in 1945 has been a much bigge…

The author covers that. (More details and argument for why he thinks that is in his book) https://stevenpinker.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-ab... The explanation for the decline of violence in the second half of the 20th century is obvious: The bomb. The theory of the Nuclear Peace is evaluated in chapter 5, pp. 268–278. I think it’s unlikely. World War II proved that conventional warfare was already unthinka…

The bomb is only a real deterrent amongst the superpowers. The cost of maintaining and deploying a modern military force is a bigger influence. Devoting a large portion of GDP to a standing army is only possible for demagogues and those few nations wealthy enough for the waste to not be felt by the populace. And even for the demagogues, their impressive manpower isn't all that well equipped or trained because it costs too much.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#256
post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

You acknowledged that he made a specific argument about violence, which is a fairly straightforward and measurable metric. He didn’t claim that “conflict is being better managed” or that “things are getting better,” which are extremely subjective and hard to quantify. Your point about the legal system, while valid, seems irrelevant to his argument. And you didn’t provide any argument that the situation has gotten wor…

1) The issue is that violence is a poor metric for progress. Pinker has made it clear that the description of declining violence is done in order to describe the improvement of the human plight, as most succinctly crystallized in the title of his first work on the point, and the overarching research thesis of his second. The structure of his first argument also points to this: violence has decreased, and all of the reasons have to do with humanity getting better, smarter and more empathetic. Here I suggest that in order to make that claim, broadly, we need to understand what violence is, and why its reduction may actually be a symptom of things getting worse for people. I am not the only one to make this distinction. Many groups advocating for historical 'have-nots' make the same counterpoint in reaction to Pinker's work.

2) With regards to the legal system, the issue is tremendously worse than it used to be. There was a time when "normal people" had better access to justice - the fact that you even need to ask this question should cause readers to pause and reflect upon what that means for the system.

The legal system, like measures of international violence, have social purposes - this is where Pinker's arguments fall flat to me. Think of them as pressure release valves. If the negative causal force (i.e. Conflict) causing those systems to need to act aren't actually being reduced, yet the system is systemically reacting less and less to the stimuli it is receiving, it is akin to a server reporting that it is A+ Okay and only under 25% load, but ignoring that it is discarding 99% of requests to it. No sane engineer would think things are getting better if the report drops to 24%, given the full context.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#257
post #11

I read Pinker's previous book, "The Better Angels of Our Nature," and found it eye-opening; it changed the way I perceived the world. Highly recommended. (Here's a review: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/books/review/the-better-an... ) This book, his latest one, is now an automatic buy for me.

Have you read Sapiens by any chance? If yes how does it compare with this book?

I read both of them. Sapiens is more interesting in my opinion.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#258
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I couldn't help but feel like Pinker is peddling feel-good nonsense to sell books, and give people hope to cling to. Progress or betterment is entirely subjective, and when considering the human condition, relies on too many variables to even count. Of course, the variables the Pinker focuses on have gotten better overall. The way I see it is a chaotic scatterplot that is trending slightly upwards towards…

It's telling that one of the richest, most well off men on Earth is helping to peddle this narrative. It behooves those in positions of power and wealth to hoodwink the masses into being satisfied with their given stations. Research and statistics say the world is a better place than ever, put down your protest signs.

Could you please not post unsubstantive rants to HN? Even if you're right, it's a quality-lowering comment genre. There's no point worth making here that can't be made thoughtfully, as indeed other users have been doing in this thread.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#259
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that one of the richest, most well off men on Earth is helping to peddle this narrative. It behooves those in positions of power and wealth to hoodwink the masses into being satisfied with their given stations. Research and statistics say the world is a better place than ever, put down your protest signs.

Bingo.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> usually, but wrongly, called "Western culture" or "American culture" Usually, but not wrongly. Not only because bona fide American culture (even morals and soapiness) are the majority of what's replacing local cultures, but also because the little of regional cultures that becomes international does so after it passes from an American filter/lens. > Personally, I don't mind the universal culture. But then, I'm just…

Let me clarify what I meant: it's not wrong that it's Western/American because it's where it happens to be coming from, which is just the function of US being currently the biggest economic and cultural influencer. But I say it's wrongly called because at its core it's not American - it's older than America, and lots of its part have nothing to do with the US or the Western world. The universal culture is, simply, wh…

Artificial? As opposed to the natural mechanic that paints billboards with coca cola commercials, or undercut things like tap water in terms of price through hostile negotiations for water rights?
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