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MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

blog.chiariglione.org

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Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#71
post #67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that they're worth keeping, but patent income isn't the only way to fund this research. It's just been one of the easier ways to fund it up to now. Also note that I never claimed that the patent income wasn't being put to good use by funding research. I was arguing that many of the patents themselves were bullshit, and that many of the companies that own them had acquired them from universities on slightly-to…

There isn't really another way to fund Fraunhofer institutes — they're supposed to turn theoretical research into something that can be directly applied ny corporations, so they have to have an incentive to create something like that. With funding through patent fees, exactly this happens. The alternatives are government funded research, or companies like Google doing it all internally, but then Google will keep some…

But for this model to work, the international community of licensees has to actually believe that your patents have merit.

If you act like a cartel, generate reams of questionably valid patents so that you can hand them out to your member corporations under sweetheart terms and at the expense of your licensees, you're eventually going to piss off enough people to make the music stop.

Evidently, this is what happened. The patent pool is now so large that it's really easy for other players to come in with their own, similar patents. They can use these to create new patent pools and try to take everybody hostage with higher fees (HEVC Advance), or they can build a protective moat and threaten to sue anyone who demands licensing fees from them.

Patent licensing can be made to work in a lot of cases, but these guys really dug their own graves here.

Also, I think there are a number of alternative funding routes that can be made to work. Government funding, as you mentioned, could be one of them. Terms of the funding could stipulate that the research be made publicly available and licensable under reasonable terms.

Companies can also choose to fund the research via Fraunhofer rather than doing it all internally. Not everybody has Google's resources, and there are major advantages to having improvements included in a standard that everybody can access.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#73
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there's an answer: the market actually wants free standards because they're realizing it's more beneficial to them than any other outcome. So money and effort is being pumped into developing free video encoding standards. It seems there is an incentive for the foreseeable future to continue to improve video codecs simply because it saves on bandwidth and disk space costs, and improves user experience. T…

> …Vorbis and Opus have been outperforming the competition for a long time now. Sorry to be pedantic about one bit of an otherwise-fine post, but AAC is comparable to Opus at any given bitrate[1]. Plus, even the most esoteric flavor of AAC has the enormous advantage of 7+ years of ubiquity[2]. [1] See the multiple charts at http://opus-codec.org/comparison/ , for one presumably-unbiased source. [2] All versions of An…

That comparison appears to says that the difference in quality between opus and he-aac is the same as the difference between he-aac and vorbis.

Opus is definitely better, but we have basically hit the wall in audio compression (we'll need a serious breakthrough to go much farther). There also isn't as much interest in audio codec research because even very large raw audio files pale in comparison to fully compressed video.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#74
post #47

Wait... someone at MPEG actually believed their own bullshit? That a massive campaign of extortion, intentionally complex legal maneuvering, and outright intimidation is actually beneficial to technological progress in some way? (Sure, it's beneficial to some of the companies involved in the licensing extortion scheme; I don't think anyone disagrees with that.) Or is this guy just an incredibly skilled troll with 30…

This guy is the MPEG chairman.

Usually I'd expect someone in this position to toe the party line pretty hard, but he actually sounds reasonably level-headed to me. He even cautions the reader not to get their hopes up that anything will improve.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#76
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic Free Software wouldn't exist, not to mention codecs like Vorbis. The logic of software patents systematically underestimates the existing incentive structures. That's because of the simplifications economists usually make. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assume_a_can_opener ) The assumptions underlying patents become less justifiable as 1) the pace of innovation in an industry increases, compounding…

Free software addresses a fairly limited universe of software, and often is bankrolled by some other monopoly or quasi monopoly. Where would web standards be without the trio of Google (advertising monopoly), Microsoft (operating system monopoly), and Apple (brand-marketing driven fashion company)? The value of the patent system is that it permits decoupling. Compare the Wintel monopoly to the decoupled ARM ecosystem…

  > The value of the patent system is that it permits
  > decoupling. It wouldn’t be better if mobile chip R&D had
  > been bankrolled by Google’s say search business or Apple’s
  > cell phone business instead.
I think your examples prove precisely the opposite. The development and emergence of smartphones were effectively bankrolled by Google and Apple. The mobile phone sector was stagnant while every vendor was busily pursuing IP monopolies (Wintel, Sun Java, etc). And in any event, ARM's intellectual property moat largely derives from copyright-like protections on its IC masks, not from patents. MIPS was also a contender early on, but importantly ARM won because it had strong SoC designs ready-to-go.

Your argument is a variant of the argument that by creating a transferable property right, we reduce the transaction costs of negotiating access to inventions. My point is that those transaction costs are dramatically overestimated (don't confuse complex or opaque for costly), and in any event far exceeded by the unintended costs of a patent system.

Importantly, when it comes to complex technology a patent no longer embodies the requisite know-how. People and companies don't lose much by giving away their secret sauce because very often the only people capable of applying and productizing it in a timely enough fashion to capture the lion's share of profits are the inventors themselves. Moreover, the best way for a market to discover who is best at leveraging an invention--if not the inventors--is by making it more freely accessible.

Also, the shift to SaaS and cloud computing means that complex systems never leave the control of their creators, anyhow. This is happening despite the fact that the patent system is supposed to incentivize disclosure.[1] Worse, the patent system makes it easier to stop competitors without substantial disclosure of the end-to-end systems. You can patent all the small sub-inventions, permitting you to block competitors, without every having to disclose the larger, integrated whole that makes it functionally useful in the market.

Even if the patent regime ensures that we get an MPEG codec that is 10% more efficient (or arrives 10% sooner) than an equivalent codec that would arrive in the absence of patent protections, is that worth allowing MPEG rights holders to effectively extort money from smartphone makers?

Because that's what we're talking about here. In this day and age, patents don't make innovation commercially viable; at best patents making them viable a little sooner and a little better. But the _costs_ are enormous, and I would argue far outweigh any meager benefit.

[1] Similarly, film and TV producers pursue DRM despite copyright protections, and despite the fact that DRM seemingly provides little marginal extra profits. The transactional costs to Hollywood of negotiating DRM would seem huge. But either the costs are less than they seem on the outside, or they're already making such huge profits that they can afford to try to lock down the market even more. But copyright was created to reduce the transactional costs of negotiating a locked-down distribution system. If companies are pursuing DRM anyhow, we really should question our presumptions about the necessity fo government intervention. For copyright we probably need some minimal protections (weaker than we have), but we can probably forgo patents altogether, especially in the realm of software.

Again, just because it seems that a patent regime would make a market more efficient doesn't mean that it would. Our measurements of efficiency might bear no relation to what a free market needs to maximize benefits. Communists thought they could devise a more efficient market in grain production, but obviously they missed or misjudged a few necessary incentive structures that allowed for a self-sustaining market (including secondary markets, etc) that maximized output.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#77
post #12

Standard MPEG-1 MPEG-2 MPEG-4 Visual MPEG-4 AVC MPEG-H HEVC Bitrate vs previous 25% less 25% less 30% less 60% less The table at the end is hiding one factor : the computation cost of each new codecs. Have we really found new better ways to compress videos, or is it just Moore's law in action ?

Depends on what you mean by "just Moore's law." Certainly each standard was developed with a higher target decode complexity; H.264 and H.265 both targeted 2x greater than the previous standard, JVET is currently targeting 16x, and I think AV1 is aiming for less than 2x HW area.

So yeah, there were obvious gains left on the table for H.264 for complexity reasons that H.265 picked up; likewise for H.265/VP9 that AV1 picked up.

That said, there has been a lot of refinement that didn't necessarily increase complexity, and there have been various tools that saw reinvigorated research once complexity targets were raised.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#78
>> Companies will slash their investments in video compression technologies. Thousands of jobs will go and millions of USD of funding to universities will be cut.

I believe this is total BS. There are great open technologies(i.e http/http2) and they didn't need a extortion cartel to police anyone who dares to use them without to buy a license(if they could buy it in the first place). Codecs should be open and they can be developed/sponsored by people who benefit most(i.e. Media companies, internet companies, hardware companies etc)

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