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MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

blog.chiariglione.org

61–70 of 153 posts

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#61

> AOM will certainly give much needed stability to the video codec market but this will come at the cost of reduced if not entirely halted technical progress. There will simply be no incentive for a company to develop new video compression technologies I don't think is correct. The driver for innovation in video compression technologies will continue to be the practical problems of encoding and distributing video. Th…

This means that codec development makes no sense for anyone who doesn't own either a large distribution platform or a large playback platform. (Much of the research has been done by middleware companies attempting to tax the two; their business goes from royalties to work-for-hire, at best, which is way less attractive for them). This is fine – in a macroeconomic sense – but of course it sucks if you're one of the co…

By that logic Free Software wouldn't exist, not to mention codecs like Vorbis.

The logic of software patents systematically underestimates the existing incentive structures. That's because of the simplifications economists usually make. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assume_a_can_opener)

The assumptions underlying patents become less justifiable as

1) the pace of innovation in an industry increases, compounding first-mover advantage;

2) complexity increases, because integration of an invention into a viable product becomes much more difficult--often such that copyright and other IP protections alone are more than sufficient to provide a moat;

3) as financing becomes cheaper and potential markets larger the time horizon for and amount of ROI demanded by investors diminishes;

Those are especially applicable to many modern high-technology industries, software (Silicon Valley) and industrial (SpaceX).

Other industries have proven to be able to thrive without strong patent protections or even copyright protections for myriad other reasons. The fashion industry has thrived without strong patent or copyright protections, largely based on trademark and marketing. Likewise for the beverage industry and consumer foodstuffs more generally. Major automakers had poor copyright protections, and while they had stronger patent protections, as safety regulations increased they shifted to a market segmentation model such that the big auto manufacturers often freely license patents among each other long before the patent expires.

Economists, especially conservative economists, often argue against anti-trust, reasoning that as markets become larger (finance markets, consumer markets, etc), the typical lifetime of a monopoly become shorter--often shorter than the typical lifetime of anti-trust litigation.

I would argue that as markets grow larger and more fluid they're far more capable of discovering and leveraging sufficient incentives to support innovation in the absence of government-imposed monopolies. Especially in the realm of software, the circumstances where there's a legitimate market failure requiring patents are so uncommon that there's no reason to even entertain the notion of a software patent system.

In the absence of _manifest_, _systemic_ market failures, patent advocates make the same mistake Communists make--an inability to imagine how a market can support an endeavor is not evidence that a market is incapable of supporting that endeavor; it's merely evidence of one's own lack of information and imagination. And the surest way to introduce market failure is by dangling the prospect of government-imposed monopoly rents, artificially increasing the opportunity costs of discovering and leveraging all the non-obvious incentives that naturally exist or could evolve.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#62
post #54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professors and their friends on the committee are self-dealing when allocating the committee's research funds. Grad students at the Fraunhofer partner universities still do the bulk of the work. I don't see how I've missed anything.

Fraunhofer can't pay its researchers anymore if their patent income goes away? Research then is only done with government funds or in corporations, where the corporations definitely won't license their research (e.g. selfdriving tech) to competitors. In places where the research is done like you said, all your points are true, but IMO institutions such as the Fraunhofer institutes are worth keeping.

I agree that they're worth keeping, but patent income isn't the only way to fund this research. It's just been one of the easier ways to fund it up to now.

Also note that I never claimed that the patent income wasn't being put to good use by funding research. I was arguing that many of the patents themselves were bullshit, and that many of the companies that own them had acquired them from universities on slightly-too-friendly terms because of the MPEG cartel.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#63
post #11

> AOM will certainly give much needed stability to the video codec market but this will come at the cost of reduced if not entirely halted technical progress. There will simply be no incentive for a company to develop new video compression technologies I don't think is correct. The driver for innovation in video compression technologies will continue to be the practical problems of encoding and distributing video. Th…

Yes. This is the lie of software patents. That somehow without thousands of lawyers and corrupt business contracts engineers will stop innovating. We don't need them.

In many areas, engineers need to get paid to innovate. Dating back to at least the standardization of CD-ROM, that was mediated through the use of patents. Note that until recently, there was almost no open source development of media codecs.

Today, there is an advertising and entertainment industry generating huge surpluses that can also bankroll engineers to develop codecs. I’m not convinced that this is a better model.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#64
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there's an answer: the market actually wants free standards because they're realizing it's more beneficial to them than any other outcome. So money and effort is being pumped into developing free video encoding standards. It seems there is an incentive for the foreseeable future to continue to improve video codecs simply because it saves on bandwidth and disk space costs, and improves user experience. T…

> …Vorbis and Opus have been outperforming the competition for a long time now. Sorry to be pedantic about one bit of an otherwise-fine post, but AAC is comparable to Opus at any given bitrate[1]. Plus, even the most esoteric flavor of AAC has the enormous advantage of 7+ years of ubiquity[2]. [1] See the multiple charts at http://opus-codec.org/comparison/ , for one presumably-unbiased source. [2] All versions of An…

OK, fair enough: HE-AAC had been out-performing the leading open source audio codec for a while. Easy to forget primarily because even after many platforms supported HE-AAC, it wasn't necessarily common across all media. I really saw it explode on the internet around the time DASH streaming became more common, since adding new audio formats was much less expensive.

That being said, I still think Opus is better now, since it is more versatile. I've yet to see anyone use HE-AAC in a real-time context, unless they're using it under a different name.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#65

You can buy a $50 SBC today with 4k HEVC decode HW blocks, enabled out of the box. For me, that puts the technology deep into the established box, and last I checked, whoever is making the IP core for it neither the many manufacturers shipping it are the least bit concerned. This post sounds like scaremongering.

Unfortunately that's not where the licensing ends - HEVC pools also charge for content distribution. Hence why you see companies like Netflix in AOM, despite them not having to pay fees for the hardware itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#P...

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This means that codec development makes no sense for anyone who doesn't own either a large distribution platform or a large playback platform. (Much of the research has been done by middleware companies attempting to tax the two; their business goes from royalties to work-for-hire, at best, which is way less attractive for them). This is fine – in a macroeconomic sense – but of course it sucks if you're one of the co…

By that logic Free Software wouldn't exist, not to mention codecs like Vorbis. The logic of software patents systematically underestimates the existing incentive structures. That's because of the simplifications economists usually make. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assume_a_can_opener ) The assumptions underlying patents become less justifiable as 1) the pace of innovation in an industry increases, compounding…

Free software addresses a fairly limited universe of software, and often is bankrolled by some other monopoly or quasi monopoly. Where would web standards be without the trio of Google (advertising monopoly), Microsoft (operating system monopoly), and Apple (brand-marketing driven fashion company)?

The value of the patent system is that it permits decoupling. Compare the Wintel monopoly to the decoupled ARM ecosystem. It wouldn’t be better if mobile chip R&D had been bankrolled by Google’s say search business or Apple’s cell phone business instead.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#67
post #62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraunhofer can't pay its researchers anymore if their patent income goes away? Research then is only done with government funds or in corporations, where the corporations definitely won't license their research (e.g. selfdriving tech) to competitors. In places where the research is done like you said, all your points are true, but IMO institutions such as the Fraunhofer institutes are worth keeping.

I agree that they're worth keeping, but patent income isn't the only way to fund this research. It's just been one of the easier ways to fund it up to now. Also note that I never claimed that the patent income wasn't being put to good use by funding research. I was arguing that many of the patents themselves were bullshit, and that many of the companies that own them had acquired them from universities on slightly-to…

There isn't really another way to fund Fraunhofer institutes — they're supposed to turn theoretical research into something that can be directly applied ny corporations, so they have to have an incentive to create something like that. With funding through patent fees, exactly this happens.

The alternatives are government funded research, or companies like Google doing it all internally, but then Google will keep some of it as trade secrets, which is also undesirable.

I don't think there's an alternative if your goal is go keep all research publicly available and in a way that any company can easily license it.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#68
post #44
post #27

The idea that private companies were responsible for the majority of the innovation that led to these video compression standards is a complete fabrication. The majority of the work was done by the grad students of the professors who are on the standards committee. Private companies then race to patent or buy up anything that's tangentially related during the draft period, so that they can sign on and receive royalti…

And so what do you think is the solution? Do you think that "Only by becoming a Technical Committee can MPEG [...] stay competitive in the market." is true, or what could be a valuable alternative?

The alternative is... honest business practices.

Re: MPEG: A crisis, the causes and a solution

#70
post #47

Wait... someone at MPEG actually believed their own bullshit? That a massive campaign of extortion, intentionally complex legal maneuvering, and outright intimidation is actually beneficial to technological progress in some way? (Sure, it's beneficial to some of the companies involved in the licensing extortion scheme; I don't think anyone disagrees with that.) Or is this guy just an incredibly skilled troll with 30…

When people first started discussing which codecs to use on the web a decade ago, the argument made for the MPEG-LA stuff was that a) we're better, b) we're reasonably priced, c) we're already everywhere in hardware, and d) you don't have to worry about the patents because we've got you covered. Ultimately, they won on that basis. However, when HEVC rolled around, that argument was destroyed by the multiple patent pools, and the consumer groups for the patents were pissed off enough to make competitive alternatives.

I suspect that he believes that the perpetual funding stream of ever-better patents is needed to fund the research for ever-better codecs (which, as you say, is disputable but not unreasonable). I also suspect that he would argue that some of the problems of the protection racket amounts to a necessary evil (a protection racket does give you a viable means to combat submarine patents). However, the AV1/HEVC situation undermines these arguments, and this is someone who realizes the gravy train is running out of rails and is desperate to keep it from derailing instead of bailing while he still can.

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