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The Eve programming language project is winding down

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Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#261

Post by wll »

zubairq wrote: post #220
diggan wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No worries, I understand and have gratitude towards the folks working on it as well. But I don't agree with that they changed the entire industry. The second link you posted mentions nothing of Swift. The first one has the following quote about Swift: > The default language for making new iPhone and Mac apps, called Swift, was developed by Apple from the ground up to support an environment, called Playgrounds, that w…

yeah, good point. Sorry I said Swift, but I meant Playgrounds. I guess I see Playgrounds as the interactive IDE part of SWIFT, like Visual Studio is for C++, so I don't really separate the two in my mind. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on the other point, I just like the discussion :)

Kickstarter uses “Swift Playgrounds for iterative development and styling. Most major screens in the app get a corresponding playground where we can see a wide variety of devices, languages and data in real time.” (The Kickstarter iOS app is open-source [0]; see their playgrounds [1].)

Here’s [2] Brandon Williams’ talk Finding Happiness in Functional Programming (starts at “Playground-Driven Development,” but I suggest watching the whole talk), [3] the Swift Talk episode “Playground-Driven Development” (Brandon Williams and Chris Eidhof), and [4] the Swift Talk episode “Test-Driven Reactive Programming” (Lisa Luo and Chris) wherein they build a small but complete PoC all within Playgrounds.

There are many more examples, such as Chris Lattner’s own Dynamic Member Lookup proposal [5] Python Interop playground [6] and Reactive Swift’s getting started playgrounds [7].

Playgrounds are very much entangled with Swift’s core (value proposition).

[0] https://github.com/kickstarter/ios-oss

[1] https://github.com/kickstarter/ios-oss/tree/master/Kickstart...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0VaIKK2ijM&feature=youtu.be...

[3] https://talk.objc.io/episodes/S01E51-playground-driven-devel...

[4] https://talk.objc.io/episodes/S01E53-test-driven-reactive-pr...

[5] https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposa...

[6] https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mo... (download the attachment)

[7] https://github.com/ReactiveCocoa/ReactiveSwift/tree/master/R...

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#262

Post by [deleted] »

exikyut wrote: post #133
marssaxman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is much much easier now than it was in the 80s! It's been years since I actually had to write any code myself - computers do it all for us now. Amazing things, these "compiler" programs.

That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I always kind of looked at my preferred language's grammar as "code", but now I feel like I'm calling TLS SSL when I do that. I wonder what else to call it. "Source code" is obvious and what everyone uses, but now I want something else to use.

[deleted]

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#263

Post by zubairq »

wll wrote: post #261
zubairq wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, good point. Sorry I said Swift, but I meant Playgrounds. I guess I see Playgrounds as the interactive IDE part of SWIFT, like Visual Studio is for C++, so I don't really separate the two in my mind. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on the other point, I just like the discussion :)

Kickstarter uses “Swift Playgrounds for iterative development and styling. Most major screens in the app get a corresponding playground where we can see a wide variety of devices, languages and data in real time.” (The Kickstarter iOS app is open-source [0]; see their playgrounds [1].) Here’s [2] Brandon Williams’ talk Finding Happiness in Functional Programming (starts at “Playground-Driven Development,” but I sugge…

Wow, great set of links, thanks, I will check them out.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#264

Post by pjmlp »

zubairq wrote: post #246
pjmlp wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lovely! Have you also used the Input magazines? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_(magazine)

I loved the input magazines. I’ll have to dig out my old ones ! I think we only had them in the uk though?

They were widely available on the Iberian Penisula as well.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#265

Post by flukus »

beagle3 wrote: post #187
phaemon wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that bad. I turn on my computer and type: echo "This is nice." and it does. Then, I type: for i in {1..10}; do echo "This works too! Number $i" done And it does.

I appreciate this response... As you say, it's not too bad, although the {1..10} and the semicolon would be more confusing to the uninitiated (based on the fact that they are confusing to many bash veterans as well...) Now, how do you replicate SAVE "myprogram" and a later LOAD "myprogram" RUN without having to teach vi, redirection, chmod, source, $PATH, and friends? My point is that the old environments, while limi…

You raise a good point, but we could replicate that with a couple of trivial shell scripts too. Throw a curses library (https://bashsimplecurses.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) into the default profile and you've got an environment capable of simple apps and games too.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#266

Post by diggan »

wll wrote: post #261
zubairq wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, good point. Sorry I said Swift, but I meant Playgrounds. I guess I see Playgrounds as the interactive IDE part of SWIFT, like Visual Studio is for C++, so I don't really separate the two in my mind. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on the other point, I just like the discussion :)

Kickstarter uses “Swift Playgrounds for iterative development and styling. Most major screens in the app get a corresponding playground where we can see a wide variety of devices, languages and data in real time.” (The Kickstarter iOS app is open-source [0]; see their playgrounds [1].) Here’s [2] Brandon Williams’ talk Finding Happiness in Functional Programming (starts at “Playground-Driven Development,” but I sugge…

Thanks a lot for the comment, gives me a new view of Swift. Didn't understand Playground was so embedded with the language and/or vice-versa. Very interesting.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#267

Post by infinite8s »

erikj wrote: post #198
erikpukinskis wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a side note, and as someone else working in this space, you do yourself a disservice by telling yourself work in this space is stagnant since SmallTalk. It’s not that programming ergonomics are stagnant, it’s that all of the gains have been made by professionals. And the tooling is nearly impossible to leverage for a beginner environment because all of the assumptions of a pro developer are built in to their desig…

How is Markdown innovative exactly?

It took ideas from the 70s, dropped the interesting parts, and was hailed as a revolutionary approach to marking up documents. Ie, the past 30 years of computing have been about narrowing the interface between programmer and computer to the equivalent of a straw (everything as text!) and then try to build an entire system around that.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#268

Post by erikpukinskis »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #259
erikpukinskis wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we don’t. Nuclear fusion is a theory, there is evidence it is possible. We can observe it by looking at the stars. Omnipotent AI is not a theory. There’s no evidence it is possible. I have yet to even see a a falsifiable hypothesis about how it could come about. The most advanced hypotheses are something along the lines of “they’re getting smarter do eventually they’ll be infinity smart” which is not a strong cla…

> Omnipotent AI is not a theory. That's not what was suggested. Human-level intelligence is sufficient to cause a singularity (because then they can start improving their own programs). > better prediction about AI is they will surpass us in some ways and not others. That isn't a better prediction at all. Regardless, it is uninteresting to my original point, which is we want to live in the Iron Man, not Ultron, phase…

> Human-level intelligence is sufficient to cause a singularity (because then they can start improving their own programs)

Your assumption is that human-level intelligence is bound by offline simulation capacity.

If humans are already optimally utilizing offline simulation (in the biological world we call that imagination) then the “human level” AI will have just the same limitations as a human.

That’s the counter-proposal you have to make falsifiable for your guess to become a hypothesis:

That any human-level AI, in order to become human level, will be bound to the same interactive constraints on learning that humans are.

Think about World War II for example: were strategies limited by offline simulation capacity, or were they limited by the fact that you can only try (and therefore sample consequences for) one at a time?

I’m not making a claim here either way: I’m just saying you wave this whole debate away by saying “human intelligence plus unlimited simulation equals superhuman intelligence”

I’m not saying your wrong, it’s an interesting thought experiment: I’m just saying not only is there zero evidence for that, there’s not even (to my knowledge) a robust model describing the mechanism by which that could expect to be true.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#269

Post by cestith »

chubot wrote: post #100
empath75 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you worried that you might end up reinventing Perl?

I addressed this a bit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7lsajn/oil_shell_03_... I mentioned I would write a post called "Python Is Not an Acceptable Shell". I think it's also clear that Perl isn't an acceptable shell, simply because shell still exists. And awk and sed still exist -- in fact I believe it's common these days to use shell/awk/sed but NOT Perl, which means that Perl fell short of its mission…

http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/open.html

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#270

Post by rntz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #87
flukus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. We've been doing this for as long as computers have existed and have made virtually no progress (pun intended) since 3GL languages. No other industry has ever tried as hard as ours has to make itself redundant. Programming is about as simple now as it will be for the foreseeable future, any simplification sacrifices…

I strongly disagree with this. Today, it is "think to program", but the computer is right there, it can help out a lot more beyond just interpreting the program you thought hard about writing. Instead, the computer can help us think, it might not be able to do the reasoning for us, but it can help us break it up into smaller pieces. A nice analogy is the difference between Ultron, Hawkeye, and Iron Man. Ultron repres…

> Humans aren't getting much smarter in general.

It's actually possible that we are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect ; summary: "The Flynn effect is the substantial and long-sustained increase in both fluid and crystallized intelligence test scores measured in many parts of the world from roughly 1930 to the present day." (But both the reality and the interpretation of this are matters of some dispute.)

Moreover, without any computer assistance until very recently, our ability to do mathematics has advanced marvelously over the past few thousand years. We shouldn't underestimate the power of education, culture, better notation, and accumulated wisdom to advance human capacities even at purely intellectual endeavours such as math (or, for another example, chess).

Of course, none of this says that computers themselves can't help us program, which is your primary point. I just think you're being a little pessimistic about "merely human" ways of improving ourselves.

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