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After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

nytimes.com

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Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#131

Post by maxxxxx »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
maxxxxx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Did they turn me into an instant addict? Of course not." That's the case for you but others are more prone to addiction. My girlfriend some years ago had a surgery and got opiates afterward. The pain was gone a after a few days but it took a lot of convincing and almost force to make her stop with the opiates. This stuff is really addictive for some.

It must be. I've had Vicodin a few times, and found it had had no effect other than pain relief. There was no experience of a "high" or euphoria. I have never finished a prescription, as it simply stops occurring to me to take it once the pain is gone.

I got Vicodin and felt really good. Never slept that well before or after but I am not prone to addiction and stopped taking it without problem.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#132

Post by majewsky »

Quzani-Berlin wrote: post #2

Hi, I read your article and many of your experiences are - sadly - the normal behaviour with pain and pain killers in Germany. In the south of Germany even more than up in the north (from my experiences). But there is hope... I would recommand that you search for a new doctor - in the best case a young doctor fresh out of the university. The reason is simple. Pain management have only recently become a major topic in…

The sibling comments have already discussed that you're misreading the article. I want to address your actual comment with a counter-anecdote.

My previous general practitioner retired a few years ago, and passed on his office to a younger colleague who's in her 40s. I'll visit her maybe once or twice a year because of some infection or internal inflammation. There's a marked difference in how she treats those things compared to my old doctor: He would always prescribe me a few over-the-counter drugs for symptom relief. My new doctors's approach is to just prescribe rest [1] in most cases, together with recommendations for homemade remedies. If that's how younger doctors play the game, I'm all for it.

[1] And lots of it. Sick notes are never for less than a week, and she insists that if the symptoms are not completely gone by the end of that time, I shall come back and get another few days off.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#133

Post by mnm1 »

Well, I suppose in Germany they also have a week of vacation, sick leave, or disability to take off while feeling this pain and drinking tea. When that's the case in the U.S., let's revisit this. Till then, let's hold off on the moral judgements when the reality is some of us literally have to go back the same day to work as the surgery. I've only taken pain killers once for a bad dental abscess that my dentist was too dumb to see on an x-ray a couple of hours before I could no longer chew. That was on a Friday and if I hadn't had pain killers from previous surgeries, I'd have been in agony. I don't think it's up to any prissy ass doctor to tell me, or anyone else, when I should feel pain or not and whether I will need pain killers or not. As the very least, I think we've established that people have different pain thresholds and a doctor should know this before even entering medical school.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#134

Post by omarqureshi »

joosters wrote: post #69
maxxxxx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you buy Ibuprofen in stores or do you need a prescription? In the US most stores have a big aisle with painkillers.

In the UK, ibuprofen, aspirin and paracetamol are sold freely everywhere (but only in small packs). Painkillers containing codeine are available over the counter, after talking to a pharmacist. Anything stronger requires a prescription.

The 500/5 cocodamols will cause liver damage before any codeine kicks in.

What is interesting is that if you really interesting is that a certain large pharmacy does a 200/12 ibuprofen + codeine combo.

I once had a prolapsed lower disc (from sport) and neck spasm (from stupidity) at the same time. Whilst I couldn't take naproxen (lots of reflux even with omeprazole), that and 500/15 cocodes with diazepam was the only way to get to sleep.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#136

Post by jjeaff »

dpflan wrote: post #67

This passage feels like it is premise of the article; the author eventually comes to terms with her tea-sipping and resting as recovery, and this doctor explains the reasoning behind the medical decision-making which is very clear (and mindful/thoughtful) I think. “To paraphrase him [German anesthesiologist], he said: ‘Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will…

I wonder if that doctor has ever had major surgery himself and been told not to use painkillers?

Even if that is the case, pain seems to vary greatly in how it affects people. I would be very hesitant to tell someone that they should just let the pain "guide" them, because I have no idea what it is like for them.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#137

Post by maxxxxx »

christophilus wrote: post #130
maxxxxx wrote: post #11

"I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something" I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex.

Interesting. I wonder if we have stats on painkiller usage per country? I found this ranking of countries by Opiate usage[0] which places the US at 27 (below Ireland, Switzerland, Italy, and the UK. Maybe I only hang out with granola Americans, but the only people I know who think the way you describe-- looking for pills to solve minor problems-- are relatives of medical personnel. I can't think of the last time I pe…

"The list does not include opioids, which is classified as a different drug under the World Drug Report 2011 list, which is considered "opiates and prescription opioids."

I think you got the wrong list.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#138

Post by jjeaff »

rincebrain wrote: post #115
wallflower wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex. I have a friend who was in an accident and required emergency surgery. She happens to be a drug addict who is no longer involved in drugs (we do not say 'former' drug addict as there is no such thing). Even though she put in her intake form "DRUG ADDICT" in bold letters and told them, they s…

It's such a strange bimodal distribution, among people I know - there are those who take preposterous numbers of painkillers on a semi-regular basis, and those who won't take an OTC painkiller except under duress when they're on the edge of blacking out from the pain. I do think a great many people either overprescribe or are overly dependent on painkillers, opioid and otherwise, but there's also many different kinds…

This study showed that a Tylenol ibuprofen combo was as effective as opioids (and with zero chance of addiction). If course it's likely to vary in effectiveness by patient and depend on the type of pain. I can't help but feel that pharmaceutical companies probably don't want a lot more studies like this coming out.

https://www.healio.com/family-medicine/pain-management/news/...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#139

Post by viperscape »

maxxxxx wrote: post #11

"I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something" I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex.

Well depending on the surgery that might be advisable, it's an anti-inflammatory and heading off inflammation is usually beneficial.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#140

Post by coldtea »

rascul wrote: post #125
wallflower wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex. I have a friend who was in an accident and required emergency surgery. She happens to be a drug addict who is no longer involved in drugs (we do not say 'former' drug addict as there is no such thing). Even though she put in her intake form "DRUG ADDICT" in bold letters and told them, they s…

Could you elaborate on how there's no such thing as a former addict? I'm curious, as there are a couple substances I used to be addicted to but am not any longer.

It's a belief of some advocacy groups, like AA and such.

In real life, there are lots of drug addicts and alcoholics that managed to recover for the rest of their life just fine, including drinking in moderation for social reasons without relapsing (as opposed the teetotallism stance advocated by said groups).

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