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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#161

Post by jacquesm »

e40 wrote: post #63
bcatanzaro wrote: post #17

I don’t understand how this is possible. We have a lot of programs to help people - food assistance, housing and health care assistance, disability... Are these benefits being counted when we say they live on $4/day?

I'm in the East Bay (near SF). I befriended a guy living on the street more than a year ago. He was a machinist in the midwest and was laid off. Because the winters are too brutal there, he came to CA. He didn't have valid ID and without an address it was difficult for him to get ID, without which the places he could possibly live were inaccessible. Last fall he finally found a group home, but it was temporary, and h…

Couldn't you give him an address by allowing him to register at yours to obtain the ID?

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#162

Post by [deleted] »

UncleEntity wrote: post #148
aaron-lebo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem, but not the way you are exaggerating it to be. You act as if there is a nazi army ready to march on the nation, but that's not happening. We do have pockets of bigots and racists and god knows what else, but they don't have huge bases of support unless we act like they do. Nazis want to feel important, they want people to get riled up and fight them. That's what the actual nazis did. ordinary Nazi ru…

Basically, from what I can tell, nazi is anyone with an opposing viewpoint. I would also posit the majority of recent political violence is from the Antifa folks who believe they can shutdown their opponents through pure and simple violence. In fact there was one act of violence attributed to all the "tea party" protests during the Obama era and that was instigated by an anti-tea party person. For two generations pol…

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#163

Post by _m8fo »

moduspol wrote: post #158
_m8fo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In no sense do people start off with nothing. People start off with the abilities or lack thereof possessed at birth. Compare a child with fetal alcohol syndrome with one without it. Do both start off with nothing? No. Clearly one has something the other does not. Why do people insist on believing nonsense?

Of course individuals have different abilities. You're missing the point. The claim is societal. We (as humans) started out with nothing. Over thousands of years, we built religions, governments, businesses, laws, science, and everything else, which ultimately resulted in a lot of us having a lot better quality of life. But our default state (as humans) is to have nothing. That some people are still in poverty should…

Yeah, no. How can you claim we started off with nothing yet say over thousands of years we built things? Clearly we started off with something. You should be more precise in your language.

If you change "nothing", with "no possessions, talents, abilities, or skills", which is the same thing, then you'll see why what you're saying is illogical.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#164

Post by jacquesm »

jps359 wrote: post #114
xorfish wrote: post #19

So what do Switzerland, Germany and Iceland better than the rest of the developed nations?

They don't have 300 million people living there.

Actually, Europe does. America is closer to Europe as an entity than it is to Denmark or Germany.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#165

Post by cdoxsey »

woodruffw wrote: post #156
woodruffw wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again. Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation. Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important: >> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer. > The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum. No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privilege…

> No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privileged group. That is what a zero-sum scenario would require.

No it requires not hiring the privileged group.

If you are hiring 1000 employees, and 10000 applied, and you've ranked them in some way, adding "diversity" to the equation means the ranking comes out different. Ranked potential employee 1307 using the pre-diversity standard, becomes employee 904 under the post-diversity standard.

But to move up that ranking, by definition, other people had to be moved out of the way. Maybe potential employee 1000, who only barely squeaked by, is now potential employee 1012, and so doesn't make the cut.

This is exactly what happens at universities.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#166

Post by workthrowaway27 »

sp332 wrote: post #153
workthrowaway27 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't get rid of hierarchy. It's a natural part of human relationships and how humans organize themselves into societies. To think otherwise is absurd.

You can certainly avoid building your whole society to perpetuate and amplify inequalities between people. The U.S. constitution was a good step forward but let's not stop challenging inequality where we see it.

I agree partly. Some inequality is certainly immoral, particularly when it's based on a person's race or gender. (And that definitely occurs in the US). But sometimes it comes down to other factors, like intelligence, work ethic, assertiveness, etc. if that's the cause of the inequality and I don't think it's desirable to eliminate it.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#167

Post by grasshopperpurp »

randomdata wrote: post #83
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fact remains that everyone starts with nothing. This is clearly wrong.

I struggle to see what is inherently bestowed upon a new born child beyond life itself? The child may eventually be given things, but that's not the same thing as what we are talking about. Some examples of how it is clearly wrong would be useful, because there is nothing clear about it to me.

>The fact remains that everyone starts with nothing. The parent questions why some are able to flourish, while others continue with nothing indefinitely.

This is your entire statement. If you're wondering why some are able to flourish while others aren't, getting hung up on the technicalities of a pointless statement is a poor start. We know that people are born under various circumstances ranging from remarkably poor to exceptionally rich, and we know that's the best indicator of future wealth. Yes, they have to inherit the money at some point, but they grow up experiencing the benefits (and drawbacks) of that wealth - whether or not it's in their names.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#168

Post by thebigspacefuck »

SauciestGNU wrote: post #57
randomdata wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact remains that everyone starts with nothing. The parent questions why some are able to flourish, while others continue with nothing indefinitely.

People start with extremely unequal circumstances. Social mobility is low and those born with wealth will keep it and those born without are unlikely to ever attain it. This platonic ideal where everyone starts on equal footing and some people are just better than others at accumulating wealth is absurd.

It would be interesting to see a real life Trading Places and see how well the unwealthy do given a wealthy lifestyle. Or can we just look at lottery winners?

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#169

Post by cobookman »

woodruffw wrote: post #156
woodruffw wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again. Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation. Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important: >> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer. > The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum. No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privilege…

I just don’t buy that. Not every company has infinite head count.

Universities for example only have so many spots they can offer. So if a university keeps 10% of the spots for diversity candidates, then only 90% of the capacity is for diversity candidates.

Compounded with non diversity candidates applying in a disproportionately high number to diversity. And the population of non diverse having a better education. You end up making it harder for non diverse candidates and raising their bar.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#170

Post by RandomTisk »

UncleEntity wrote: post #148
aaron-lebo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem, but not the way you are exaggerating it to be. You act as if there is a nazi army ready to march on the nation, but that's not happening. We do have pockets of bigots and racists and god knows what else, but they don't have huge bases of support unless we act like they do. Nazis want to feel important, they want people to get riled up and fight them. That's what the actual nazis did. ordinary Nazi ru…

Basically, from what I can tell, nazi is anyone with an opposing viewpoint. I would also posit the majority of recent political violence is from the Antifa folks who believe they can shutdown their opponents through pure and simple violence. In fact there was one act of violence attributed to all the "tea party" protests during the Obama era and that was instigated by an anti-tea party person. For two generations pol…

There is a sort of folly that makes one overestimate the value they place on something. Imagine a knight who wants to be brave and courageous, whose pursuit of valor takes him to a place where he heard many evil creatures are gathered. So he goes into a starving mongrel's den and attempts to slay the wild beasts. He kills one, strikes another, and the rest get away. He drags the dead one back to the city square where his minstrels sing his praises. He killed one wild animal, that may or may not have hurt anyone, and achieves a great deal of valor, all at very little risk to himself in his shiny armor.

Meanwhile the next town over is being raped and pillaged by bears, lions, pirates and wildfires.

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