Live data from Hacker News

Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

ac.els-cdn.com

241–250 of 406 posts

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously you don't understand HN.. everyone here is a "very smart software engineer" and knows far better than a simpleton like you with your decades of medical training and experience.

The neurologist wants what's best for his patients today, which is to know whether a treatment is likely to work or not. Others may value the mechanism more for very legitimate reasons. For instance, if you underatand the mechanism it leads to further research that could utilize a related mechanism or perhaps see potential side effects that would otherwise be hard to identify. You really need both. "Is it true?" is a…

It's a matter of practicality too. A scientific experiment of any kind can only in full honestly provide a set of results given a set of conditions. No matter how well your theory may fit the existing data, fundamentally your data may simply be responding to some other mechanism you're not aware of or not measuring.

There is a huge amount of effort required to say why something works with certainty. Usually to get there requires many years of experience with a new surprising result. Which requires publishing lots of results before understanding the mechanism.

If you refuse to believe anything that isn't figured out from first principles is true... I mean... I have a condition and if someone told me a higher percentage of patients on a new drug did well than on the one I use, do I care if they can tell me exactly why? Not in the slightest. I will wait a year or two to see if side-effects crop up and ideally see the results confirmed, but I'm not going to not get a treatment likely to help just because they don't know how exactly how it works.

I think it's good practice to assume the results of a paper are accurate, even if you give no credence to the interpretation.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#242
post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

Examine.com has a page for curcumin. They cite 5 sources with notable impacts on reducing depression, but they summarize with this:

"Curcumin seems to be somewhat more effective than placebo in reducing symptoms of depression. It may take 2-3 months to see any outcomes. Skepticism is warranted though, as the studies comparing curcumin to placebo were not well designed and produced effect sizes not too far apart, even though the differences were statistically significant."

https://examine.com/supplements/curcumin/#hem-depression

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see a lot of turmeric and a ton of other spices and herbs in SE Asian cooking too. But I really wouldn’t say that these populations are particularly healthier. The idea that modern medicine is ‘playing catch-up’ is laughable. For every home remedy they get right, they probably get many others wrong. I agree drug companies are still fairly evil.

> For every home remedy they get right, they probably get many others wrong. Ayurveda & any Vedic sciences are arguably as rigorous as today's sciences, if not more. You're are grossly mistaken if you think Ayurveda is a "home remedy".

"rigorous" in science, especially biomedical sciences, has a specific definition. Where is the double-blind testing? Where is the statistical significance? Where are the clinical trials?

Ayurveda likely has a lot to offer as a FOUNDATION to start doing investigative research; but this claim of "any vedic sciences are arguably as rigorous as today's sciences" is bunkum. Show me any statistics / clinical trial data (or its equivalent) in the vedas?

I will accept & agree with the idea / contention that a lot of the treatments in ayurveda are possibly based on strong observations & correlations. Which is a good place to start modern scientific research from.

But to claim that ayurveda as written in, for instance, the Atharva Veda, is rigorous science demonstrates to me, a rather stark, depressing & baffling ignorance of modern science.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayurvedic medicine is far from infallible. Take this for instance, a selection from a reasonably popular Ayurvedic text ( https://www.amazon.in/Bhojan-Chikitsa-1-Ganesh-Narayan-Chauh... ) that is aimed at a general audience and purports to explain the health benefits of various common foods (my translation follows): > कैंसर: कैंसर में पहले तीन दिन रोगी को उपवास कराएं, फिर अंगूर सेवन कराना आरम्भ करें। कभी-कभी एनिमा लग…

I did not claim it to be infallible, nobody does. It is a science, on equal footing with any other science. It followed the same rigorous trial & error procedures that is required of all sciences. And science does gets things wrong. Ayurveda roughly translates to the knowledge / science of health. Just because it is from India & it follows Hindu traditions does not disqualify it from anything.

I'm going to chime in to the growing chorus of HNers trying to explain to you why you're wrong.

There's no such thing as "any other science." There is science as developed and practiced by qualified researchers all over the world - including India - and it's all one and the same science, which is a set of protocols for rigorously checking the relevance of what you're seeing, and the huge body of useful human knowledge that these methods have brought forth. And then there's everything else, which encompasses "folk wisdom," quackery and outright fraud. If Ayurveda and its kin provided comprehensive documentation of rigorously controlled, published and peer-reviewed studies, it would be science; as it doesn't, it isn't.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#245
post #220
post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

> Small study Almost entirely irrelevant, provided it's properly powered--and based on the effect size and p-values, it is. Furthermore, for an 18 month trial, 40 people is larger than most. > probably not preregistered I mean, true, and we should definitely promote pre-reg, but, 1. so few are preregistered that I'm not sure it's prudent to disregard a study based on this and 2. it's an academic study, neither a clin…

Last paragraph:

The University of California, Los Angeles, owns a U.S. patent (6,274,119) entitled “Methods for Labeling ß-Amyloid Plaques and Neurofibrillary Tangles”, which has been licensed to TauMark, LLC. Drs. Small, Satyamurthy, Huang, and Barrio are among the inventors and have financial interest in TauMark, LLC. Dr. Small also reports having served as an advisor to and/or having received lecture fees from Allergan, Argentum, Axovant, Cogniciti, Forum Pharmaceuticals, Herbalife, Janssen, Lundbeck, Lilly, Novartis, Otsuka, and Pfizer. Dr. Heber reports receiving consulting fees from Herbalife, and the McCormick Science Institute. The manufacturer of Theracurmin, Theravalues Corporation, provided the Theracurmin and placebo for the trial, funds for laboratory testing of blood curcumin levels, and funds for Dr. Small's travel to the 2017 Alzheimer's Association International Conference for presentation of the findings.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#246

>Because curcumin's anti-inflammatory properties may protect the brain from neurodegeneration My very first question was: Please provide a possible physiological pathway for this. I'm so glad it was answered in the very first sentence. So many of these "Superfood does X" studies are just trials with 10 people over a month, with no explanation as to __how__ it could possibly happen. It significantly increases the skep…

I am a neurologist. this is actually the exact opposite of what you should care about, which is "does it work to treat ___" In this trial, and 99% of other trials, there is no mechanism provided by the study, only a measurement of causality (which is the same thing as effectiveness). The authors may think they know based on other, prior, basic science research (as they are postulating here), but it does not affect th…

As far as neurology and psychiatry go, if we're not asking "how?", it's because we're very far from comprehending. Our brains are exceedingly complicated. If two neurons can ride a bicycle, imagine the complexity arising in a system with billions and billions.

More generally, however, a plausible mechanism is a great aid in determining the potential value of further researching a correlation because as we all know, correlation != causation, but correlation + mechanism pretty much is causation, which means correlation + plausible mechanism is very interesting. It's not wrong to ask "how?" here, though it might not yield much given the nature of the field. Certainly, anti-inflammatory properties can plausibly have positive effects on the psyche, so that's a mechanism worth some looking into.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#247
post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

This is becoming an increasingly worrying trend - to bunk any analysis with a comment on 'small sample size, biases' that somehow moves to the top of the comment pile.

Statistically, there is no such thing as a 'small sample size', in isolation. It is always related to the power and effect that the researchers want to work with.

Moreover, even if a study is statistically insignificant, it DOES NOT mean that the opposite conclusion is true. It might often merit some further examination of cultural and historical trends. In this case, for instance, turmeric has been used for medicinal properties in Asian cultures for centuries. Theories of evolution suggest that this wouldn't be the case (and it would've died a natural death), if there wasn't some merit.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#248

Turmeric has been used in India since ancient times. There are many references to it in Ayurveda - the Indian/Hindu medical sciences. Ayurveda believes in using food as medicine to non only prevent a large majority of human diseases, but also to cure several of them — all with almost zero side effects. Turmeric is just one such extremely powerful & healthy food item that Western science seems to be playing catch up o…

Ayurvedic medicine is far from infallible. Take this for instance, a selection from a reasonably popular Ayurvedic text ( https://www.amazon.in/Bhojan-Chikitsa-1-Ganesh-Narayan-Chauh... ) that is aimed at a general audience and purports to explain the health benefits of various common foods (my translation follows): > कैंसर: कैंसर में पहले तीन दिन रोगी को उपवास कराएं, फिर अंगूर सेवन कराना आरम्भ करें। कभी-कभी एनिमा लग…

How do you know Hindi?

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For every home remedy they get right, they probably get many others wrong. Ayurveda & any Vedic sciences are arguably as rigorous as today's sciences, if not more. You're are grossly mistaken if you think Ayurveda is a "home remedy".

"rigorous" in science, especially biomedical sciences, has a specific definition. Where is the double-blind testing? Where is the statistical significance? Where are the clinical trials? Ayurveda likely has a lot to offer as a FOUNDATION to start doing investigative research; but this claim of "any vedic sciences are arguably as rigorous as today's sciences" is bunkum. Show me any statistics / clinical trial data (or…

It is clear that you have not even read the Vedas to understand its implications on the world, especially in science. Most of the statistics that you ask have been lost due to them being so old, or deliberately destroyed. But we have the results to prove that these existed. "Strong observations & correlations" are just another way of saying "trial & errors".

Not just ayurveda, but take any science or even Mathematics. The Vedic civilization has been too far ahead of its European counterparts. In fact the idea of heliocentrism, gravity, action=reaction, universe & its age, speed of light, distance of the sun & moon from earth, understanding of time travel, time zones, metallurgy, the so called pythagoras theorem, sudoku & its various forms, the numeral system etc etc all have Indian/Vedic origins, so why would you doubt vedic medical sciences so much? There is also substantial evidence for surgery to have developed in Vedic India far earlier than Hippocrates or any Western counterpart. I firmly believe that if not for the muslim hordes who destroyed everything under the pretext of war, mankind would have been able to make better use of mankind's ancestral knowledge.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#250
From the Wikipedia page on Curcumin (section Research):

  In vitro, curcumin exhibits numerous interference properties which may lead to 
  misinterpretation of results.[3][6][20] Although curcumin has been assessed in 
  numerous laboratory and clinical studies, it has no medical uses established by 
  well-designed clinical research.[21] According to a 2017 review of over 120 
  studies, curcumin has not been successful in any clinical trial, leading the 
  authors to conclude that "curcumin is an unstable, reactive, non-bioavailable   
  compound and, therefore, a highly improbable lead".[3]
The study claims to have studied a bioavailable forom of curcumin, Theracumin® but it uses a very restricted interpretation of "bioavailability":

  The use of adjuvants that block curcumin metabolism, or nanoparticles, liposomes, 
  phospholipid complexes, and other strategies have improved its bioavailability somewhat, 
  but only as defined as increased curcumin blood levels8,64–66 with minimum effects on   
  curcumin availability to the brain.
The study also notes its sample was small:

  The relatively small sample size in this study warrants caution in interpreting 
  our results and limits their generalizability. 
It just doesn't sound like their results are going to stand the test of time.
Post reply on HN