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The Eve programming language project is winding down

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Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#61

Post by flukus »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #24
steelmanning wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are being a bit harsh I know, and I rewrote my post several times before submitting it, trying to minimize the harshness. But the pattern with Granger is pretty obvious, isn't it? Grandiose ambitions, over-commitment, and a resulting failure to ship.

There have been plenty of people out there with grand visions who tried and failed the first few times. Then either they give up and tone down their visions, or they keep trying and perhaps eventually succeed. LightTable and Eve are still very influential and inspiring even if they aren't successful. I am personally glad they existed, as they provide experience and lessons for future efforts.

> There have been plenty of people out there with grand visions who tried and failed the first few times.

Most of them a con men, selling something they know will never work, especially on kickstarter and the like.

This was nothing unique, it's something people have been trying to do since computers were invented and it has failed every single time. COBOL was conceived with the idea that people in other disciplines would be able to do their own programming.

When there is every reason to think you will fail and you ask people for money to try then you start to look a lot like those con men.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#64

Post by dang »

steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

This crosses into personal attack, which isn't ok at any time on Hacker News, let alone kicking someone when they're down. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't post like this again.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#65

Post by Uehreka »

rntz wrote: post #60
scroot wrote: post #59

None of us really know what programming is, and we don't have institutions at present that will allow people to explore the problem thoroughly. These guys deserved a better culture to work in.

> we don't have institutions at present that will allow people to explore the problem thoroughly What about academia? Academia is not a great environment for creating tools that people will actually use, which Eve was definitely trying to be; but "exploring a problem thoroughly" is exactly what academia is for.

Bret Victor has been writing a lot recently about why the current academia can only churn out incremental improvements and not “fundamental research”.

The problem with both startups and academia is the need to meet constant short term goals. Startups have limited runway and often investors who want to see a return. In academia, most funding comes from small National Science Foundation grants which are usually only enough to cover a fistful of months of research and require publishing a paper with novel findings.

Many of the big breakthroughs of the mid-to-late 20th century came from long term fundamental research that was financed either through large public spending (ARPA, NASA) or large monolithic corporations who thought “meh, this’ll probably benefit us in the long term and we’re pretty flush with cash” (Xerox PARC and Bell Labs).

Unless we can find ways to fund long term research (which btw will be high-risk, you have to be OK with getting no return for years or possibly ever) we will not be able to tackle large fundamental problems.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#66

Post by bachmeier »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15
steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

This is (in principle, at least) why we have public funding of basic research.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#67

Post by dang »

steelmanning wrote: post #36
gojomo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe the right-sized ambitions and effective delegation practices that have served you well in your career, perhaps with examples of the resulting successes?

When you have a failed Kickstarter under your belt, that's a good indication you need to aim lower.

Since this is your third such comment, it seems that you created this account for personal attack. That's obviously a bannable offense, so I've banned the account. Please don't create HN accounts to break the site guidelines with. We like HN users who like Smalltalk, but not being an asshole is more important.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#68

Post by m_mueller »

ibdknox wrote: post #48
steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Perhaps, but it's pretty easy to make judgements from the sideline about what people should or shouldn't do. I was the PM on Visual Studio. I can assure the things I showed in Light Table weren't there. Nor were they in Eclipse, as I studied that as well. You can pick and choose any number of things from our work over the years and say "Hey, but this looks like that" - I'm sure it does, but the question is does it wo…

I’m kinda surprised Apple or MS didn’t jusy acquire or acquihire you by now. Especially the influence on Swift/playgrounds seems obvious.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#69

Post by nightski »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #41

While Eve is an interesting problem, the main issues that makes programming hard are the same thing that makes law hard: 1) Specifying something in an unambiguous way. 2) Knowing what assumptions you are making. 3) Anticipating contingencies. Read a contract or the tax code. Even though they are using English (in the US), it requires an advanced degree to be able to craft such legal documents well. It is the same thi…

Agreed, it's hard and it takes a certain type of person to be effective at it. I'd go a step further and say that tools designed to make programming "easier" or for the masses not only are a wasted effort but actually detrimental (I'm not taking about learning environments such as MIT Squeak here, that is altogether different).

We need better tools that let someone who masters programming to take their vision and realize it in production ready code as quickly as possible. This is a very different goal from "allowing a newbie to pick up a programming language in 15 minutes".

I desire master tools. Tools that I know if I invest the time to learn (whether that takes months or years) will allow me to achieve unparalleled productivity as a programmer.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#70

Post by justAnotherNET »

ibdknox wrote: post #48
steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Perhaps, but it's pretty easy to make judgements from the sideline about what people should or shouldn't do. I was the PM on Visual Studio. I can assure the things I showed in Light Table weren't there. Nor were they in Eclipse, as I studied that as well. You can pick and choose any number of things from our work over the years and say "Hey, but this looks like that" - I'm sure it does, but the question is does it wo…

Why I come to HN: it’s like a more skilled reddit and the topic of the snarky top post shows up to lay some truth bombs.

Not gonna lie, I kind of look forward to/loath the idea of my work showing up here.

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