Live data from Hacker News

The Eve programming language project is winding down

groups.google.com

41–50 of 270 posts

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#41
While Eve is an interesting problem, the main issues that makes programming hard are the same thing that makes law hard:

1) Specifying something in an unambiguous way.

2) Knowing what assumptions you are making.

3) Anticipating contingencies.

Read a contract or the tax code. Even though they are using English (in the US), it requires an advanced degree to be able to craft such legal documents well.

It is the same thing in software. No matter how easy and intuitive you make the language and environment, you will still run into those 3 issues, and it will require dedication, training (whether formal or informal), and time to make a great programmer.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#42
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also http://witheve.com/ for more details on what it is. kinda sad :(

There's actually not much on the main page anymore. Try the blog for more context: http://incidentalcomplexity.com

huh .. that makes me think of Squeak (a Smalltalk implementation)

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#43
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe the right-sized ambitions and effective delegation practices that have served you well in your career, perhaps with examples of the resulting successes?

When you have a failed Kickstarter under your belt, that's a good indication you need to aim lower.

Can you provide pointers to your successful kickstarters, or other projects where lowering your aim created success?

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually not much on the main page anymore. Try the blog for more context: http://incidentalcomplexity.com

huh .. that makes me think of Squeak (a Smalltalk implementation)

That isn't anything like morphic/lively, if that's what you are thinking about.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#47

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

Squeak and its offshoot Pharo have been trying this for years. In fact, MIT Scratch was originally based on Squeak.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#48

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Perhaps, but it's pretty easy to make judgements from the sideline about what people should or shouldn't do.

I was the PM on Visual Studio. I can assure the things I showed in Light Table weren't there. Nor were they in Eclipse, as I studied that as well. You can pick and choose any number of things from our work over the years and say "Hey, but this looks like that" - I'm sure it does, but the question is does it work like that? Does it enable you the way the things we showed did?

> Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion.

Unfortunately even after paying ourselves only just enough to live in the area (around 40% of what my peers were paid), we needed to find a way to eat. No software is ever done, but we had more than 40,000 people using it and Light Table was a stated influence on tools at Apple, Google, and Microsoft. We did our best. Was there more to do? Of course, there always is, but at some point we had to make the hard decision to leave LT in the hands of the community. I'm curious what direction you think we should've gone instead?

> Perhaps Granger should rein in his ambitions somewhat

Maybe, but at the same time, we had people willing to let us try. You paid literally nothing for access to our work, nor to the effects our research had on others, so I'm not sure why there's this much negativity here. We need people testing the fringes because where we are is so far from where we could be. Lots of things did work in Eve and there were cases where we were so much more efficient it hardly felt like we were "programming" at all anymore. We've shared everything we've done and we'll continue telling more people about it in the hope that others can benefit from what we've learned.

And yet you're the one acting hurt, while I'm the one having to shutdown the project. That's very different from the HN that rallied us to do our kickstarter in the first place - the one that encouraged innovation and trying to do crazy things in the off chance that they work. There's so much more to do and I sincerely hope HN doesn't become so cynical and demeaning that it's not worth sharing people's efforts here.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really agree with that last part about framing it as a better spreadsheet first. What's the language you're working on? care to share a link?

I've always wanted to make a programming language, but I just tell everyone it's a shell, since that is more understandable and less "threatening" [1]: http://www.oilshell.org/ The thinking is that if I fail to make a new programming language, which is the 99% case, then at least I can make a "better bash", which I know people will use if it works. It was on the front page last week, although this is the second time…

Hahah the checklist is hilarious.

When I was learning about linux I used to find bash cool, then I moved to Windows for a long time (for game development) and when I came back I couldn't hate it more. It needs to be deprecated for something better.

I hope Oil has closures, I love closures.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#50
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

+1 - Watching from the sidelines I admire the work both from you and Chris. It is incredibly hard to move away from the current local maximum because of network effects.

Not only network effects, but path dependence due to the hegemony of our current hardware/software stack.
Post reply on HN