The Eve programming language project is winding down • Hacker News Board

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#21

Post by dman » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 12:55 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

+1 - Watching from the sidelines I admire the work both from you and Chris. It is incredibly hard to move away from the current local maximum because of network effects.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#22

Post by juancampa » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

amasad wrote: post #18

I've always admired Eve but thought it was a longshot. Had it worked it would've changed the future of computing. I'm also working on making programming easier but instead of taking a moonshot approach -- where you build the language, the IDE, and the tools -- we're making existing tools and languages easier to use. I hope Chris doesn't give up, there's a lot more to do.

For context, amasad is the founder of repl.it

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#23

Post by saywatnow » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 12:58 AM UTC

steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

My opinion is almost the opposite: I find Granger's ambitious ideas and presentations stimulating, and I like that they're out there to inspire people to imagine more and experiment more agressively.

I wish his audiences were a bit less credulous though. Experiments like Light Table and Eve are just that: interesting and potentially useful explorations of design space, but as unlikely as anything else to radically change the discipline of programming overnight.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#24

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

steelmanning wrote: post #19

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

> You are being a bit harsh I know, and I rewrote my post several times before submitting it, trying to minimize the harshness. But the pattern with Granger is pretty obvious, isn't it? Grandiose ambitions, over-commitment, and a resulting failure to ship.

There have been plenty of people out there with grand visions who tried and failed the first few times. Then either they give up and tone down their visions, or they keep trying and perhaps eventually succeed.

LightTable and Eve are still very influential and inspiring even if they aren't successful. I am personally glad they existed, as they provide experience and lessons for future efforts.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#25

Post by juancampa » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:04 AM UTC

chubot wrote: post #20

pbiggar wrote: post #7

As someone making something in the same general space as Eve, very sad to see this happen. Thanks for taking a shot and proving that there are other ways of thinking about programming! Looking forward to the writeup.

Just curious what's the general space that Eve is in? Programming environments for non-programmers? I applaud the ambitious efforts of both Eve and Light Table -- it's definitely worth trying, and the negative result is valuable too. But part of me wonders if they were tackling too big a problem, or at least MARKETING a (potential) solution to too big a problem. IIRC, I believe they figured out through talking to use…

Really agree with that last part about framing it as a better spreadsheet first.

What's the language you're working on? care to share a link?

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#26

Post by BoiledCabbage » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:06 AM UTC

chubot wrote: post #20

pbiggar wrote: post #7

As someone making something in the same general space as Eve, very sad to see this happen. Thanks for taking a shot and proving that there are other ways of thinking about programming! Looking forward to the writeup.

Just curious what's the general space that Eve is in? Programming environments for non-programmers? I applaud the ambitious efforts of both Eve and Light Table -- it's definitely worth trying, and the negative result is valuable too. But part of me wonders if they were tackling too big a problem, or at least MARKETING a (potential) solution to too big a problem. IIRC, I believe they figured out through talking to use…

> . How many people in the world have the IQ to write a program of say 100 lines that does something useful?

Have the IQ necessary? Probably 90-95%.

Have the training? Significantly lower. The training required consists of both being taught a language/medium to express thought it, and being taught a structured cause and event method of thinking.

There's this incredibly pervasive view in a lot of areas that programming requires some amazing IQ. It requires about the same level of IQ as reading & writing. But just like reading and writing, it requires training, and from a younger age the easier. If someone wants to approach it later in life, then having already learned or being familiar with transferable skills and thinking helps immensely.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#27

Post by pbiggar » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:08 AM UTC

chubot wrote: post #20

pbiggar wrote: post #7

As someone making something in the same general space as Eve, very sad to see this happen. Thanks for taking a shot and proving that there are other ways of thinking about programming! Looking forward to the writeup.

Just curious what's the general space that Eve is in? Programming environments for non-programmers? I applaud the ambitious efforts of both Eve and Light Table -- it's definitely worth trying, and the negative result is valuable too. But part of me wonders if they were tackling too big a problem, or at least MARKETING a (potential) solution to too big a problem. IIRC, I believe they figured out through talking to use…

By "general space" I meant "rethinking programming to a certain extent".

Our particular version is at http://ellenandpaulsnewstartup.com. A good way to think about it is "build instagram in an afternoon", though our internal guiding light is lowering accidental complexity for backend apps.

Our goal is to make it easier for existing programmers to code (which will have the deliberate side-effect of enabling non-programmers and programmer-adjacent roles to code too).

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#28

Post by pbiggar » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

steelmanning wrote: post #19

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

> You are being a bit harsh I know, and I rewrote my post several times before submitting it, trying to minimize the harshness. But the pattern with Granger is pretty obvious, isn't it? Grandiose ambitions, over-commitment, and a resulting failure to ship.

The problem I have with your statement is that you are attributing something to somebody about which you know nothing, based on almost no information.

A less asshole-y phrasing would be "I wonder if he had reduced his ambitions somewhat, it might have had more chance to succeed".

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#29

Post by ModernMech » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:13 AM UTC

masukomi wrote: post #4

trynewideas wrote: post #2

Missing context: this is https://github.com/witheve/Eve , not the game EVE Online or the Python REST framework.

also http://witheve.com/ for more details on what it is. kinda sad :(

There's actually not much on the main page anymore. Try the blog for more context: http://incidentalcomplexity.com

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#30

Post by fiatjaf » Thu, Jan 25, 2018, 1:16 AM UTC

Stupid idea. They had a nice platform for dealing with data, then they pivoted into another nice platform for dealing with data, then again. But in the end they wanted to create a visual programming language for non-tech people or something like that. That's too much ambition.